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  #41  
Old 01-03-2006, 11:28 AM
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The scientists, who studied the composition of the waters of the Atlantic from Greenland to Tierra del Fuego, found that they have become "very much" saltier in the tropics and subtropics and "very much" fresher towards the poles over the past 50 years.

This is alarming because the Gulf Stream is driven by cold, very salty water sinking in the North Atlantic. This pulls warm surface waters northwards, forming the current.

The change is described as the "fingerprint" of global warming. As the world heats up, more water evaporates from the tropics and falls as rain in temperate and polar regions, making the warm waters saltier and the cold ones fresher. Melting polar ice adds more fresh water.

Apparently, similar "flips" have occurred before and caused cool periods in Europe. Due to the non linear nature of such a change, the cooling could come as fast as a decade or two. Watch out.
just google: coming ice age

I still think its rather egotistic of us humans to think we can control the climate on such a huge scale.
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  #42  
Old 01-03-2006, 11:28 AM
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G'day Ving
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/im...ge-Posters.jpg
Here is the most difinitive reference you'll ever need
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  #43  
Old 01-03-2006, 11:29 AM
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do you mind if i use it?
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  #44  
Old 01-03-2006, 11:45 AM
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Not at all Ving
Here's the "IceInSpace" Global Warming Debate Team
http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg....1887_910013175

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  #45  
Old 01-03-2006, 11:48 AM
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HAHAHAHA!!!!

which one are you?
damn we should get back on topic...
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  #46  
Old 01-03-2006, 12:00 PM
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OK
School Time
Take a look at disc2 from "Day after Tomorrow"
"The force of Destiny & The Science & Politics of Climate Change"
a real eye-opener
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  #47  
Old 01-03-2006, 12:06 PM
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well you have these giant chimneys puffing out hot smoke all over the planet if that doesn't drive some small weather change and also all the heat generated by the thousands of aircraft....must be doing something even if it's only microbial?
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  #48  
Old 01-03-2006, 12:16 PM
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just polluting the air venus, just polluting the air....

robert: went to the "day afta tomorra" website (based on a hollywood movie mind!) and it showed.... inconclusive information on carbon-neutralisation and changing weather paterns with monotonous background music. I wasnt convinced after reading the said info and listening to the music that we as a species are responsible for global warming or that we are contributing in a major way.... bring on the ice age i say!

ITS ALL NATURAL!
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  #49  
Old 01-03-2006, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ving
............. bring on the ice age i say!

ITS ALL NATURAL!
don't mind the cold much Just WANT clear frigid upper Trop, Strata, & Iono Sphere's for excellent viewing & pin-point Imaging
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  #50  
Old 01-03-2006, 12:25 PM
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If that's not enough what about the global urban spread with all that artificial heating and cooling wonder what impact that's making?
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  #51  
Old 01-03-2006, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by venus
If that's not enough what about the global urban spread with all that artificial heating and cooling wonder what impact that's making?
once again i cant back anything up, but I still think minimal. wish i knew more about this... we could very well be bringing about this natural cycle of which i speak faster, bringing forth what is inevitable anyhow, i dont know.
I just dont think we have that much power. It is far more fesable to me that the conglomerate of human scientific and political egos would think it is so powerful that they can change the complete natural order of things.... this same conglomerate also state that we are intellegent.
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  #52  
Old 01-03-2006, 12:49 PM
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Might have to invest in a space elevator to get above all this polution
http://www.elevator2010.org/site/sho...OSTER1.lrg.jpg
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  #53  
Old 01-03-2006, 12:57 PM
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cool, how high does it go.... do they sell them at k-mart?

we have to get past the low tech "water world" stage first, good lod kev costner will show us the way tho!
http://ianandmanda.typepad.com/blog/day2-waterworld.jpg
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  #54  
Old 01-03-2006, 01:08 PM
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Hi Ving, and others.

While I agree there might be a natural cycle of temperature changes, this is not really the issue, if it was natural it would occur over thousands of years as has been experienced in the past, not 10s of years as we are seeing today. As I said before in Switzerland and other countries around the world Glaciers were growing, and quite a rate, in Zermatt one was even threatening the local village. Now it is no where to be seen, the temp changes simply dont occur so quickly naturally. It is too coincidental that it changed shortly after major industrialisation of Europe. Now globally all glaciars are retreating, lakes and rivers are drying up, the climate is changing at a rapid rate. You may say its coincidental, I dont, I see every day the crap comming out of cars, busses, trains, factories, power stations, chemical plants, steel works, none of this is natural (or good for us), none of it has needed to be handled by the environment in the past and it has all occured at the same time a major climate change. Seems logical that its part of the problem to me.

However to keep things on Astro related topics....And this is not to give an alternative to man made climate change...

I recall reading in an Arthur C Clark book about rapid climate change, caused by the solar system passing through a thin particle cloud (space dust) which absorbed some of the light / radiation and caused the rapid cooling of the Earth, sending it into a massive ice age in just a few years. Anyone ever read this, or care to comment on the possibility? Seems to me this might be a bigger problem than Asteroids, and there is nothing we can do about it....

Cheers

M
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  #55  
Old 01-03-2006, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ving
once again i cant back anything up, but I still think minimal. wish i knew more about this... we could very well be bringing about this natural cycle of which i speak faster, bringing forth what is inevitable anyhow, i dont know.
I just dont think we have that much power. It is far more fesable to me that the conglomerate of human scientific and political egos would think it is so powerful that they can change the complete natural order of things.... this same conglomerate also state that we are intellegent.
I suppose that we will adapt the best way we know how to whatever the environment changes throw at us maybe make us more "intellegent"

an interesting article here
"There are plenty of harsh environments for life here on Earth. But when it comes to environmental stress, Mars has a corner on the market. The average temperature on the martian surface is about -63 C (-81 F); the atmosphere is a mere wisp of a thing, some 100 times thinner than Earth's; the planet is dry as a bone; and the surface is bathed in damaging ultraviolet radiation."


http://www.astrobiology.com/adastra/extremophiles.html
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  #56  
Old 01-03-2006, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by venus
I suppose that we will adapt the best way we know how to whatever the environment changes throw at us maybe make us more "intellegent"
we will probably just build more heaters...

interesting article, thanks for the linky
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  #57  
Old 01-03-2006, 02:07 PM
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or air-conditioners...
yes interesting research with plants producing their own form of water!
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  #58  
Old 01-03-2006, 06:21 PM
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Funnily enough ( or maybe not so) while we hear about the effect of global warming by increasing greenhouse gases (valid or not) there is one topic that I find discussed very little. And this does have a direct impact on our environment and climatic conditions and is difficult to argue against. Concrete, bitumen and steel.

I'll tell you a little story, and see what you think.

Once upon a time our verdant little country (well around the edges anyway), and many other countries, were covered with a funny sort of green stuff called trees, shrubs and woody plants, that had the remarkable ability of taking in radiant energy (sunlight) and converting a considerable portion of it to chemical energy (the molecular bonds of sugar molecules) and storing it for later use, or until it was further converted after millions of years to another type of quiescent heat storage called coal or oil.

Now sunlight is funny sort of stuff. If its not absorbed completely, some of it is reflected as light (maybe with a few colours deleted) and some of it is re-radiated as heat. Now when we had plenty of these green things quite a considerable amount was not re-radiated but absorbed and used and stored, sometimes for all intent and purpose, permanenty. And not only that. Any light that made it past the leaves of these funny green things called trees, often fell on a ground covered in moistish decomposing leaves. Now water is a great medium for temporarily holding heat til certain organisms can use it to break down dead and dying leaves that in turn help blanket bare ground and prevent it from heating up, drying out and blowing away (but that's another story).

So here we have these green things, growing, and acting like a living heat sink. Sure some light and heat was reflected back or re-radiated, but eventually a balance was reached whereby what wasn't used was eventually re-radiated back out into space. This balance was achieved by a number of things but principally by certain gases in our atmosphere that acted like a sort of regulator valve or "space" blanket made of gaseous wool.

Now along comes Mr Natural human. Cutting down the green things and replacing them with hard things to make his/her life easier. Now one of the problems with these hard things, like bitumen, concrete, steel and roofing tiles, is that while many do absorb light, that light isn't transduced into chemical energy but is re-radiated directly back into the atmosphere as heat. But that's ok as our space blanket made up of gaseous wool will only hold in so much heat. (But what happens when we start to put more gas wool into the blanket. But I won't go there, that is for another disussion). Any way back to our re-radiating heat.

What is that heat doing? Well its likely to be doing a number of things. Remember our once upon a time green things? Well when they were here regulating how much heat was re-radiated back into the atmosphere, they were also releasing huge amount of water into the atmoshere as vapourous sweat. Yes plants sweat. Huge amounts of sweat. And like many things in nature like calls to like and soon this sweat started to pool together into tiny droplets which absorbed heat from the atmosphere which cooled the atmosphere which caused more droplets to form which called to other droplets who joined with them until clouds started to form. And when the cloud droblets were heavy enough they fell as rain, cooling the earth and carrying the heat they absorbed into the soild where it raised the vast bulk of the soils temperature just a tiny tiny tiny bit. So these green growing things were not just energy transducers but they were rain bringers too, which helped plants grow by replenishing the water tables and also by removing some of the latent heat in the atmosphere and putting it in a place where the temperature was normally very stable and could tak e alot of extra heat without detriment.

So what is happening now. Have you noticed over the past few years that we are getting less and less rainfall...hmmm could be a long term variant we aren't aware of. If you were to check the rainfall records for the past 150 years (yep longer than that actuallY) in some places in our country the rainfall is less than half now of what was received 150 years ago. Oh and when it does rain, areas that were once relatively unknown for flooding now flood regularly. Maybe it's because the water can no longer get into the ground (the best place to store water) and is funnelled away to somewhere where it's someone elses problem.

Have you ever stood way off in the distance on the top of a hill and noticed the heat haze coming of a town or city? Funny I cant recall seeing that coming off a forest. I wonder how high that column of heated air goes up? Oh and it's not just convected heat, it's radiated heat as well. Far more heat than our poor little sweat drops can absorb and still join with other sweat drops, even if there were as many as there was before. So the thing I can these cities is rain deterers. But unfortunately it's not just the cities. If there did happen to be a lovely moist airstream heading towards the city the column of hot rising air may well force that moist airstream to divide and go around it, there by creating a rain shadow behind the city. I bet thing would get dry there, and hotter without the rainfall to cool the air down.

I've waffled on long enough so I'll leave the rest of the story for another day, or maybe you'd like to make the rest up for yourself. Because after all it's just a story, isn't it?
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  #59  
Old 01-03-2006, 06:37 PM
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Yes. Your arguments are interesting. However, you are saying the root of all problems lies with humans. Well maybe not but that is the impression I got.

The Earth has had several Ice Ages, all before Humans had the ability to cause one themselves. These Ice Ages have lasted for tens of thousands of years because the Ice and snow covers the Earth reflecting the Sun and keeping the Earth's surface nice and cool.

If we go into another Ice Age it is possible that it will never end. We have been lucky up until now.

I agree that Humans are a terrible influence on the Earth. We eliminate species, we eliminate plant life and we pollute the Earth. I do believe however, if the Earth is plunged into another Ice Age, it will have very little to do with us.
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  #60  
Old 01-03-2006, 07:06 PM
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Hmmm...no I'm not saying that humans are the root of all our problems. We do however seem to have a habit of carrying on activities regardless of the potential consequenses to ourselves and every other living thing on this planet. The localized reduction in rainfall is only one example. Oh and btw, the records I spoke of are human records. Geological and biological rainfall records go back along way further than that. When taken over a few thousand years of time these current hydrological activities are anomolous.

There are no guarantees. Either way. Yes the earth has swung from iceage to tropical paradise and back again a number of times. This usually happens over tens of thousands of years though. Our current activites have the potential to act as a catalyst and bring about changes over periods of hundreds of years, not thousands. And the out come of this is pretty scary. For one thing I would imagine that mankind would be very lonely. Living things take time to adapt. Hundreds of years is too short a time for this to happen. Our decendents could find that our current activities have a similar effect to that well known incident 65 million years ago.

Unfortunately I don't know many people who take the philosophy that we are only custodians of this planet for our children ad infinitum. It is not our personal play thing to do with as we want, or ignore at our peril.
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