Portable Scope and Mount Selections for Visual and Photographic use

[AstroJason (Jason)]

Hey guys,

Hoping to get some advice on a few things here. Been out of the hobby for about 10 years now and looking to get back into it. I am looking for a scope that can be used for both visual and astrophotography as well as be highly portable. I am not in too much of a rush as I want to make the right decision here without the need to upgrade scope/mount/ccd later down the line, although I may have to concede to needing to upgrade if the astrophotography bug really bites me hard.

At the moment I am happy to continue to use my 60D on a fixed tripod with the various lenses I have to do wide angle astrophotography. I have also recently sent off my application to join the ASNSW so I can meet and check out gear that other people use and are happy with. I think most of my questions here would be answered once I check out equipment myself but I just wanted to get a start on this. I have already received some advice on products that are out there such as the Vixen Polarie which is handy for portable DSLR astroshots.

But I do want to start thinking about my next scope and what it should be. So below I have listed what my current thoughts are, please feel free to provide feedback here, especially if I am going right off track. I would love to keep the budget for all this under $3000 if possible.

Aperture. Having previously owned a 12” Dob I don’t want to go too far back in aperture. It was a Meade Starfinder (so was the big cardboard tube, not the collapsible Lightbridge Meade sell today). So I am fully aware of the sheer weight and awkwardness of large scopes. At the moment I’m living in a top floor unit (2nd floor). But I have pretty good views of North, South and East (although they are light polluted). So lugging it up and down stairs is a factor I have to consider. I am thinking either an 8”-10” scope. I’m leaning more to a 10” because I really don’t want to concede too much aperture. Also I will have access to the relatively dark skies of Heathcote on most weekends.

What is the weight difference between a 8” vs 10” scope?
Is there much of a difference visually through the eyepiece between a 8” vs 10” scope?
Will imaging through a 10” scope on deep sky objects make any difference to a 8” scope? Less imaging time?

Scope Type. This is one area which has been doing my head in and I keep swapping and changing my mind on. I guess the weight difference between an 8” v 10” scope will be answered in combination with this section. Firstly I can rule out another Dob. Also Refractors are ruled out as I would like to use the scope for deep sky visual use and a 10” refractor… need I say more…

So which to get out of a Newtonian, SCT or Astrograph? My head is saying Newtonian because they are cheaper than the other 2 options. Great for visual use and it could be a great base to start my astrophotography from. However they are long. I think the shortest 8” Newtonian is 800mm (which is about the max tube length I would like) while 10” is 1000mm? While nowhere near as long as my old 12” Dob, I would like something a little more compact. The SCT option is a little more pricey, but is compact and offers incredible visual use. However for astrophotography I hear they are not the greatest scope to use and I’m probably better off with a Newtonian? Which brings me to the Astrograph option. By far the most expensive OTA of the lot, however the photos I have seen taken with them are “out of this world”… However for visual use I hear they aren’t as great because of the large obstruction created by the secondary mirror.

What is the shortest 10” Newtonian on the market? Been eyeing off the Skywatcher Carbon Fibre f4 OTA from Andrews… although the Guan Sheng sounds like it could be a good value for money option? Just unsure of the quality?
Do Newtonians suffer the same issues SCTs do for imaging?
Am I correct in thinking SCTs aren’t the greatest for imaging?
Can an Astrograph by used for visual use when required and still present a great view?
Are the Guan Sheng Astrographs worth the price?

Mount. This I think I have nailed down to a NEQ6Pro. Reason for this is I think it should suit my weight requirements for some time into the future and it seems that any level up in terms of payload capacity means almost a doubling in price. Is there any alternative mount out there that is in between the load capacity of a NEQ6Pro and say the EQ8? Just here we’re talking a jump from 20kgs – 50kgs. Is there anything in between that does not break the bank?

Apart from all this I think my “easy way out” alternative would be to just bite the bullet and get a 10” Meade LX200ACF on a wedge. But I honestly only think this because for some reason I feel more familiar with Meade products. Plus it exceeds what I would like to spend!

CCD. I have no idea here apart from Canon DSLR knowledge and I think it would be a while off before I get into purchasing a dedicated CCD for astrophotography.

Anyway wow that is a long post with heaps of questions! Apologies about that! But if anyone out there can assist in narrowing down some of the questions I have that would be great.

Thanks all,

Jason

[Kunama]

I too am easing back into this hobby with a do it all scope, some visual some photography. (More imaging than visual, hopefully)

My setup consists of:
new Vixen GP-D2 mount,
iOptron IO8400 GoToNova control,
Vixen HAL130 tripod,
mint s/h Vixen R200SS 8" Newtonian F4
Canon 50D + Baader ACF, and
various Vixen bits (Coma Corrector 3, Extender, W/A adapter & Tmount)
LV 6mm, LV 20mm and LVW 3.5mm
Meade 9.7mm,15mm,25mm Plossls

Total outlay about $3500.

Should keep me busy for a while. Its a nice and compact setup. The R200SS F4 is about 700mm long.

Edit: The F4 was a factor in my decision, as I will be using a DSLR and wanted to keep exposure times as short as possible, the 2 fStops mean times are reduced to a quarter of those for an F8 scope.

[Irish stargazer (John)]

An F4 astrograph Newtonian from GSO on an EQ6 would do for both visual and astrophotography and wouldn't break the bank

[AstroJason (Jason)]

Thanks for the suggestions so far guys.

Matt, how are you finding the iOptron IO8400 GoToNova mount? I have heard good things about iOptrons ieq45 mount. Most saying its better than the NEQ6Pro. I would consider it however it is more expensive for the same load capacity.

Thanks for confriming that astrograph is good for both visual and astrophotography John. So safe to say that a 10" GSO astrograph would be portable enough up and down stairs?

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

I have and use both the HEQ5pro and NEQ6pro mounts for spectroscopy...
Lugging the NEQ6pro mount up and down stairs is definately NOT for the faint hearted!!
It would need to be separated into the various components, then moved around, plus the scope, plus power batteries, the eyepieces/ cameras/ cables etc etc
Could add up to four or five trips.....

[AstroJason (Jason)]

Thanks Ken, I'm reading that the mount and tripod alone are 24kg (then another 10kg of counterweights) so 34kg! The mount alone, without counterweights or tripod is 16kg. So as you say, it would be a few trips up and down stairs along with all the other components. Looking at 3 trips just for the mount. Definitely food for thought.

[Poita (Peter)]

I'd say don't get an EQ6 unless you can go semi permanent in your situation. Lugging the mount in and out really ends up equalling not setting up very often, unless you are *really* dedicated. I found that was the case even living on the ground floor.
Once I made a weatherproof cover for the mount and left it outside, I used it easily five times as much.

For scopes if you want big aperture and reasonable portability then go with an SCT, add cooling so that tube currents aren't such an issue and it gets to temp faster. SCTs are fine for imaging, especially if you get one that has a mirror lock (celestron edge or Meade ACF), just make a long dew shield from a camping mat or similar to keep the dew at bay. The SCT won't limit your imaging, at least in the first 5 years, and you can do planetary which is fun as well. You can always piggy back the DSLR with a lens, or pick up a cheap ED80 later for widefield.

There is a great 10" Meade ACF SCT in the classifieds from Casstony at the moment, and you could get it and a 2nd hand EQ6 and have change from $3000.

I have owned 8" and 10" scopes and run them side by side often, there is a significant difference at the eyepiece and with photography. I ended up with a 9.25" as it was close enough visually to the 10" and was easier to manage (and had the hyperstar option which I wanted).
Having said that though, on some occasions the view through the 10" wasn't much better due to seeing limitations, especially on planets.

A C11 is also still pretty manageable, but maybe outside the price range.
You may as well get a 10 or 11" as the scope will be a trip down the stairs on its own no matter what size you get, so it doesn't save you any portability going with an 8"

Yes Newts are cheaper, but they are l-o-n-g and photography I found a hassle as the camera is mounted on the side, not on the back and I always had troubles with flex, balance etc. The mount also has to work harder because of the length.

Whatever you choose, the scope won't be the limiting factor for the first few years at least as far as photography goes, skills and mount will be far more the issue really. SCT or Newt or Mak or whatever, get one with resonable optics and a good mount and they will perform better than your skills are capable of for quite a while really.
That is not a dis, photography is time consuming and processing is more than half the skill, most of the other half is guiding and polar alignment, managing backlash and seeing. The actual scope only become the limiting factor once all that is mastered, and that takes a long long time

[GC - South Aus]

G'Day Jason

Welcome back to the hobby (obsession)!

I wish I had all the answers for you, but alas I don't. The holy grail of the one use for all (visual & imaging) scope is something that still alludes me!

I am gathering from your discussion below and situation that portability is key!

Based on this you could consider:

EQ6 Pro/Orion Atlas with a 8 - 10" Imaging Newt, 8" - 10" SCT with focal reducer or a 4" - 5" APO Doublet refractor. Albiet you may have to do some searching on the classifieds to keep within budget (especially the refractor option).

Any of these would be a great package for visual and imaging, however all would be a pain in the butt (SCT & Refractor not much so!) for trampling up and down sets of stairs.

If you are looking for something that is truely portable, maybe the following:

HEQ5/Orion Skyview Pro or a CG5 mount (this mount will have a limited load capacity of around 15 - 17kgs) with an 8" - 9.25" SCT or a 4" - 5" APO doublet refractor.

This would be a lot lighter than the EQ6 and a Newtonian and more transportable, especially if packing into a car for dark sites. The thing to remember is that you will be limiting yourself more to the scope you can use in the future due to its lower load capacity than the EQ6 Pro (which its approx 25kg load).

The thing to ask yourself is what kind of imaging you want to do (planetary or DSO)? SCT would be great for planetary and with a 6.3FR will be ok for DSO (I have seen some good DSO images taken with SCT's checkout google images). Where as the 5" APO Doublet (something like a Skywatcher 120 Pro, I wish I could have one!) will be great for DSO's and good for planetary.

The SCT (or a MAK if you are looking at just planetary) & APO Refractor will be better options for transportability, holding collimation during travel, easier to find/build cases for etc etc.

I worry in that you will not be any different to any of us, in that once you get back into this you know the "aperture fever" will take hold!
But sometimes you have to make trade off's (i.e. money, space, quality of light polluted skies etc) and go for a more suitable option! I think if you were to get anything too heavy and cumbersome, you may soon put yourself off and the equipment may see little light.

Good to see that you are not rushing in and taking time to consider though.

Best of luck

Regards

Gav

[AstroJason (Jason)]

Thanks for the detailed responses guys, very helpful and much appreciated.

Here I was thinking the mount was pretty much sorted yet it is starting to be the one thing which could undo my plans. I may really have to rethink this and go the HEQ5 Pro mount and drop down to an 8” scope for a few years. Maybe that is the smarter move for now considering my current situation.

But all things considered regarding weight, I’m still going to be faced with a similar problem with an 8” scope and the HEQ5 Pro mount. I mean they obviously aren’t as heavy as a 10” scope and a NEQ6Pro. I would probably still have to carry the mount and counter weights separately on the HEQ5 up and down stairs. (I think this is me trying to talk myself into getting a larger scope).

Peter, I have actually spoken to Casstony about that OTA but I’m not sure I’m just ready yet to purchase. Also there are risks involved in shipping it to Sydney from Melbourne which will cost between a further $100-$200. But thanks for the heads up on it anyway. Your point about you noticing a significant difference between an 8” to a 10” both at the eye piece and with photography does reaffirm my thinking in going the 10” plus the fact that you make a very good point here… the scope is 1 trip up/down stairs regardless of size. Should I just get a 12” then?

But yes I understand where you’re coming from; astrophotography is going to be time consuming and requires a lot of patients and skill. Processing… I have a lot to learn here.

Gav, the limiting factor of load capacity on the HEQ5 Pro is exactly what is leading me towards the NEQ6Pro. Once I add my 60D, a Guidescope and a Autoguider to the mix I would like the mount to be more than capable of carrying the entire load. I want to do DSO imaging more than planetary, hence why I am leaning away from SCT.

Regarding the scope though, you guys have me thinking that while a SCT might not exactly be the best OTA for imaging DSO it may be the best solution for my situation because it’s the most compact. And as Peter has suggested, it will take me a while to get my skills up to speed to push the scope to its limits.

And yes Gav, I know “aperture fever” will take hold! It’s already beginning to take hold and I don’t have a scope yet! Those 16” Meade Lightbridges that Bintel are selling at $1999 make my head twitch each time I look at them!! But I agree and know from my past experience in this hobby that getting something too heavy and cumbersome does put you off from using it and everything just ends up sitting there gathering dust. I don’t want that to happen this time around!

One last question, what are peoples thoughts on the GSO Astrographs? They have the focuser at the back (unlike the newts). Should I still consider them? Anyone have first hand experience with them?

[GC - South Aus]

Originally Posted by AstroJason

One last question, what are peoples thoughts on the GSO Astrographs? They have the focuser at the back (unlike the newts). Should I still consider them? Anyone have first hand experience with them?

Hi Jason

I don't have first hand experience but I have seen some impressive images from them. There are plenty of reviews on the internet and a simple search will reveal some especially on the Cloundy Nights site.

I know that a few IIS members have them, so best leave the opinions to them. I think there is also a review of the GSO 8"RC in one of the IIS equipment review sections.

Good Luck

Gav

[AstroJason (Jason)]

Thanks Gav I will have a look at that review, should give me an idea of their performance.

[GC - South Aus]

Hi Jason

As it turns out, I may have sent you down the garden path as there appears to be no GSO 8" RC review in IIS. I have read so many reviews lately I have forgotten where I have read them!

So I felt kind of bad about it so I got you these links below for GSO 8" RC review and equipment discussions:

http://paulhaese.net/GSORC8inchreview.html (Paul is an IIS member)

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/11...t-impressions/

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=44888

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthrea...9/Main/4434014

http://www.myastrospace.com/forums/s...-Gso-8-quot-rc

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=2006

Happy reading!

Regards

Gav

[AstroJason (Jason)]

Oh wow! haha no worries Gav! Thanks so much for that mate, Got some reading ahead of me! Much appreciated

[Poita (Peter)]

Originally Posted by AstroJason

the scope is 1 trip up/down stairs regardless of size. Should I just get a 12” then?

Well, if you are going to be carrying up and down the stairs, then yes.

As you said, the scope is always going to be a trip on its own, so it doesn't make much difference. There is a 12" meade SCT on sale in the classies at the moment. It has the advantage of taking classic focal reducers, so you can knock it back to f6.3 or even f3.3 from memory, and have a resonably fast DSO scope, and a killer scope for planetary and for those tiny galaxies that need the long focal length and big aperture to reach.

As far as budget goes, you could have a 12" SCT and an EQ6, both second hand for about $3000, and talk the owners into throwing in some eyepieces and other bits and pieces I'd grab a crayford SCT focuser for about $120 or so, it will allow you to focus finely and attach your DSLR easily. They make SCTs a joy to use.

This will keep you busy visually for a long time, and for <$100 you can throw a toucam on the back and do some quality planetary and moon imaging while you learn the ropes. Or use any webcam you have laying around. I probably still have a piece of solar film big enough somewhere to make a solar filter for it as well.


Down the track, when you are ready for photography, I would save up and get an good OAG and guide camera, like the lodestar and SX OAG. It works a treat on SCTs and RC scopes, and bypasses so many problems with flex and mounting an extra guidescope etc. You can use your DSLR on the back.

[AstroJason (Jason)]

Thanks for those links Gav, had a read through each of them now. Some real good reading there. Looks like some mods are required to really make the GSO’s work. Focuser needs to be replaced from the word go and there are some issues with reflections, all that are easily fixed though so no big deal there. Some people say that they aren’t great for visual use while others say they are fine.

Yeah it is a fair point with all things considered. I have to make the trip with the scope on its own regardless of size. But yeah I saw that SCT Peter, just not ready to jump in on anything just yet and have a couple things I need to sort out still. I was close to just biting the bullet and purchasing the 10” OTA casstony was selling but was not keen on having to get it shipped, would much rather just pick it up, but if one comes up for sale in Sydney Im still not sure if I’ll go for it.

I noticed Andrews put the price up of the NEQ6Pro as well ($100 more). Same price as Bintel now. So again if one comes up in good condition on the classies I might grab it.

Anyway at the moment I’m leaning more to an SCT for their compact size on a NEQ6Pro mount.

Thanks everyone for your input!

[AstroJason (Jason)]

Actually I probably couldn't go a 12" SCT because wouldn't the weight of it along with guide scope and cameras, etc be too much for an NEQ6Pro to handle? Or would it just be able to cope?

[GC - South Aus]

G'day Jason

No probs about the information (links) just thought it would give you some better information than I could.

With regard to the 12" SCT on the EQ6, I am not sure I would recommend this, especially if your prime interest is getting back into imaging. Might be barely ok for visual but I don't think you would get optimum imaging out of this setup and I certainly would not use the goto to slew around.

Max SCT I would recommend on the EQ6 for imaging is the C9.25 and the 10" Meade, or a 10" Newtonian.

Regards

Gav

Originally Posted by AstroJason

Actually I probably couldn't go a 12" SCT because wouldn't the weight of it along with guide scope and cameras, etc be too much for an NEQ6Pro to handle? Or would it just be able to cope?

[AstroJason (Jason)]

Thanks Gav, yeah I was reading up about it last nigh on this old thread. http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/a...p/t-67354.html

People said pretty much what you ve said here in that it might be ok for visual but would be really pushing it for photogaphy. Some people said they were getting good results with this combination but yeah I am not going to risk it. I'll stick to a 10"

Thanks again mate

Jason

[Poita (Peter)]

Mind you there is an 8" scope on an eq5 in the classies, all setup for imaging and ready to go for less than $800 all up.

Now *that* is a good deal and highly portable and is a proven system looking at the images he has taken with it. I could carry the whole thing down a flight of stairs in one go

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=97335

[AstroJason (Jason)]

You make a very good point there Peter. It is very tempting!