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  #81  
Old 07-08-2012, 07:27 PM
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Did you catch the other HiRISE pic showing the heat shield still in flight? The link is on (from Mike's post) towards the bottom.
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  #82  
Old 07-08-2012, 08:51 PM
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Can someone explain to me why they couldn't get video of the descent stage etc and some decent images first up
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  #83  
Old 07-08-2012, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strongmanmike View Post
That would have to be the first time a spacecraft has been directly imaged while landing on another solar system body, wouldn't it...?
No...


http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...996#post881996
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  #84  
Old 07-08-2012, 09:46 PM
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Oh, mannnn! This was absolutely incredible to watch! I was sitting forward in my chair, biting my nails down to the last minutes. By 40 metres I was a giddy wreck and by touch down, I was crying

Absolutely amazing, what a fantastic and monumental achievement! The excitement was contagious, the big grin would NOT leave my face And the photos just blew me away! And are now a fixture on my Iphone background

Cannot wait to hear more and more as the months go by.

Go, go, Curiosity!
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  #85  
Old 07-08-2012, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorW View Post
Can someone explain to me why they couldn't get video of the descent stage etc and some decent images first up
I posted a link on the previous page which showed the descent from the base of the rover. As for decent well it's not great but it's still good to see.
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  #86  
Old 08-08-2012, 06:33 AM
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Cheers, yes already realised this, see Post #76 - both incredible images

Mike
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  #87  
Old 08-08-2012, 07:19 AM
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What an amazing feat of engineering!
Had my doubts over the complexity of such a landing but, they pulled it off.
To top it off, I watched it live from my phone on my way home from work.

Not only is the world getting smaller, the planets are getting closer!

Thanks NASA....
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  #88  
Old 08-08-2012, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JB80 View Post
This is a nice stop motion video of the descent.

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/video...a_id=149974611
I watched that (it's not true video) and its just bad, surely in this day and age they could have captured video to show the tethered drop etc.

An amazing achievement no doubt but IMO they could have done more to capture public interest
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  #89  
Old 08-08-2012, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorW View Post
I watched that (it's not true video) and its just bad, surely in this day and age they could have captured video to show the tethered drop etc.

An amazing achievement no doubt but IMO they could have done more to capture public interest
Are you serious?
It's a rough animation made from a few of the frames currently stored in the rower. Personally I'm grateful that they provide this spectacular view within 24 hours of the landing.
In reality there are around 1500 frames of the descent in 1600x1200 full colour without compression artifacts, but they are not coming down yet because there is higher priority data they need first. So the final version will be much much better, but right now they just have other priorities.

While I would certainly love to see videos of every aspect of the landing etc then remember that every 'gadget' mounted on the rower will detract from the real science which can be done on the mission. The science payload is 75kgs split among 10 instruments. This is out of ~900kgs total weight of the rower. So if you want to add more gadgets to provide fun views of ie. the tethered descent then other more important science objectives would have to give...
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  #90  
Old 08-08-2012, 12:54 PM
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I wish it was live streaming on YouTube during the descent!

Geez Trevor, hard man to please.
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  #91  
Old 08-08-2012, 01:00 PM
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I'm such a simple mind - Just successfully completing the heaviest, largest and by far most complex landing on another planet is enough to capture my full interest
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  #92  
Old 08-08-2012, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorW View Post
Can someone explain to me why they couldn't get video of the descent stage etc and some decent images first up
Broadband on Mars isn't up to the task? Sorry, couldn't resist! Rolf's answered your question in detail. There just isn't room to take 'pretty pictures' on an entry like this, and most of the cameras were stowed away during the descent to protect them.
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  #93  
Old 08-08-2012, 01:42 PM
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Communicating with Mars - an engineering perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorW View Post
I watched that (it's not true video) and its just bad, surely in this day and age they could have captured video to show the tethered drop etc.

An amazing achievement no doubt but IMO they could have done more to capture public interest
To answer why it is difficult to have real-time high-resolution video during the
descent, an Electrical Engineer would quote the Shannon–Hartley theorem
which dictates the maximum rate at which information can be transmitted over a
communications channel of a specified bandwidth in the presence of noise.

For inquiring minds that need to know, the late, great Claude Shannon tell us that -

C = B * log2( 1 + S/N)

where
C is the channel capacity in bits per second
B is the bandwidth in Hertz
S/N is the signal-to-noise ratio
and log2 is to denote log to the base 2.

So what does all that mean? It means that for a given bandwidth with given
noise, and for a transmitter with given power, there is a maximum data rate
that one can achieve and no more.

This theorem applies to whether the channel is a telephone line, radio waves,
light waves or even shouting out an order across a noisy pub.

To get a more complete picture with respect Curiosity, one then has to also consider
the propagation characteristics of different parts of the radio frequency spectrum.

During descent, the UHF part of the spectrum (around 400MHz) was used
to communicate back to Tidbinbilla and then to the two orbiting Mars satellites
once Curiosity dropped below the Martian horizon.

The UHF part of the spectrum is effective at propagating signals omni-directionally,
just what you need for a moving target being buffeted around in the wind. However,
this part of the spectrum also provides a narrower bandwidth that one can effectively
use compared to X-band (7 to 11.2 GHz) and because one needs to transmit
omni-directionally, much of the transmitted power is effectively "lost".

Which brings us back to Shannon. Smaller bandwidth, smaller power, the less data
you can reliably transmit in a given amount of time (and as we will discuss below,
time was also of the essence).

What type of data rate are we talking about? Around 128kbps. Though the
landing sequence was all done autonomously without requiring communication
back to Earth, that limited bandwidth was also used to transmit telemetry.

Apparently three UHF antenna were employed. One mounted on the backshell
to transmit information prior to entry until backshell separation. A second
antenna then took over on the descent stage and a third was used on the rover
itself.

The rover itself has three radios. Two of them operate in X-band. One purposely
uses a low gain omni-directional antenna whose main function is to receive
commands from Earth at a very low data rate (Shannon tells us the lower the
data rate, the more reliable the data can be recovered - important when you
are driving a billion dollar asset on Mars). A second X-band radio employs a
movable high gain antenna about 0.3m in diameter that can be pointed to Earth.
It's data rate ranges from 160 bits-per-second (bps) to 12,000 bits per second.
The 400MHz UHF omni-directional antenna is used to transmit to the orbiters
at around 128,000 bits per second.

Two orbiters are used to relay data back to Earth. These are Mars Odyssey
and the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (MRO). They have more powerful transmitters
that can relay data back at a higher data rate - around 2 megabits per second.
But there is a catch. These two satellites each fly over within line of sight of the
Curiosity landing site twice a day, but only for about 8 minutes a time on each pass.

So relaying all that data in a limited window of time is tricky. In fact, when Mars
Odyssey developed a fault on June 8th when one of its reaction wheels used
to position it failed, a major piece of juggling took place to correct its orbit
so that both it and MRO would magically both be at the right place
at the right time during the seven minutes of terror.
That story is a compelling one in itself - http://www.americaspace.org/?p=23351

With limited bandwidth, limited power, omni-directional antennas and with
Earth and the Mars orbiting satellites in sight of Curiosity for only a precious few
minutes, it was not technically possible to stream real-time video. Once on
the ground, there was just the opportunity to transmit a couple of low resolution
thumbnail images before the relay satellites themselves dropped beneath the
horizon.

I guess what happens is that with the Hollywood treatment of spaceflight, many people
have become conditioned to anticipate high resolution streaming images of beads
of sweat pouring down some astronaut's face as he battles to blow up some
distant asteroid. The practical reality is that the Shannon-Hartley theorem kicks
in and there is a limit to how much data one can reliably transmit when one has
a limited amount of power.

As a footnote, this same fundamental theorem is why optical fibers to the home in
urban settings are technically the best choice for a broadband network and that
a suggestion that copper cable or wireless could be a suitable alternative is
technically naive.

Thankfully, the genius of minds such as Shannon's helped set the basis for the
modern communications systems that we enjoy here on Earth and make
communicating to a probe on Mars technically possible.
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  #94  
Old 08-08-2012, 01:44 PM
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I wasn't actually talking about streaming video, but it seems when someone doesn't follow the main stream consensus they are often denigrated.

I might be a hard man to please but I've seen better high altitude amateur rocketry video done with cheap gear under Earth conditions (thicker atmosphere, higher gravitational field etc)

The rover weights a tonne anyway so a little bit extra weight could have easily been handled. They had 140 kgs of fuel to spare on the lander module after Curiosity was dropped.

No I wouldn't say hard, probably a little bit more curious than others and a little less accepting of semi-mediocrity.

A further example of this is one of the first colour pictures shown was fuzzy, ,excuse given, was that the lens was covered with dust, wouldn't you think to make the lens self cleaning, especially in this type of environment.

I think NASA needs more PR/media people on their team? To build interest and ultimately funding you need public support and this comes by making an adventure interesting,exciting and interactive.

Its just my POV

Last edited by TrevorW; 08-08-2012 at 02:11 PM.
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  #95  
Old 08-08-2012, 02:13 PM
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I watched it live at work with my colleagues and was amazing to see everything worked so well as planned.

apparently there's half a million lines of computer code for the EDL stage.
I find this image pretty amazing in that its an alien world we're looking at.
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ms.../pia16005.html

I was confused with how the real time feed from odyssey worked with the time delay for signals, but this video explains it
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/video...a_id=149974611

anyone know what the indentations in the soil at the bottom left, around 7 o'clock could be in this image from the phoenix lander?? Not sure how that could form.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/sl...r-slide-show#5

nice article on the mmrtg used in Curiosity as its power source

MMRTG - Multi-Mission Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator
http://nuclear.gov/pdffiles/mmrtg.pdf
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  #96  
Old 08-08-2012, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorW View Post
I might be a hard man to please but I've seen better high altitude amateur rocketry video done with cheap gear under Earth conditions (thicker atmosphere, higher gravitational field etc)
I am never really fond of analogies, particularly in engineering, but
perhaps the following one might prove helpful?

Consider throwing a stone into a pond and watching the wavefront ripple out in
all directions. The weight of the stone and how high it was thrown determines the
transmitted power of the wave.

Now consider the same stone thrown from the same height into the Pacific
Ocean from say the west coast of the United States. Again the wave expands
out in all directions but once it reaches a person standing on a beach in Sydney,
the effective received power is very small. What's more, the wind blowing
up other waves, ships churning up the water and so on create "noise" which
causes the information carried by the wave from the stone to be lost.

Now scale that up to an ocean of Earth to Mars proportions. The transmitted power
once it arrives here is vanishingly small and can hardly be distinguished from
the background noise.

So the effective received power from a small transmitter on an amateur rocket would
be received like a shout compared to trying to make out the whisper
from considerably more powerful transmitters over the vast distance from
Mars (remember, even at the speed of light it took around 14 minutes for the signals to
get here).

Probably a quick Google or back of the envelope calculation would reveal the
orders of magnitude differences in received power between the amateur rocket
transmitter and the Curiosity transmitter, but nevertheless anticipate that
the power received from a modest sized transmitter on Mars would be
mind-boggling small and that the real miracle is that it can be received at all.

The ability to provide more compelling images during descent would not have
been due to any lack of foresight by the designers, but simply engineering
practicality given the many constraints involved and once again, the Shannon
theorem is at the technical heart of it.
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  #97  
Old 08-08-2012, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorW View Post
A further example of this is one of the first colour pictures shown was fuzzy, ,excuse given, was that the lens was covered with dust, wouldn't you think to make the lens self cleaning, especially in this type of environment.
From an engineering perspective, they did precisely the right thing.

The camera used was one of the wheel clearance cameras and it is fitted with
a removable transparent dust cover.

Consider the scenarios that planners faced -

The vehicle has just descended, one doesn't know if it it will be sitting on its side
or if it will have been damaged. Meantime, dust is still blowing everywhere from
the lander and will take time to settle. One could automate that the dust cover
be removed on landing, but the lens would then still get dusty from the dust cloud.

The rover has no direct line of sight path to Earth and the orbiters relaying data
will be going under the Martian horizon in a few seconds time. Furthermore, if the
vehicle is damaged or sitting on its side, it may be a major unrecoverable
mistake to deploy something mechanical like removing the lens cover until a full
assessment can be made by controllers on Earth as to the consequences of that
action.

In any case, it takes 14 minutes to transmit to Earth, say a minute for the controllers
to make a decision and send a command back, which then takes 14 minutes to
get back to Mars. But to no avail, because by then the orbiters have gone beneath
the horizon and can't receive the transmission to relay on anyway.

So what does one do? All one can do is to get off a low res thumbnail and
some telemetry as to the rover's physical orientation so that cool heads can
take the next step on the following orbiter pass or the next time the rover is
within line of site of Earth antennas.

Each move has to be made like a slow chess game.
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  #98  
Old 08-08-2012, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorW View Post
A further example of this is one of the first colour pictures shown was fuzzy, ,excuse given, was that the lens was covered with dust, wouldn't you think to make the lens self cleaning, especially in this type of environment.
It did have a dust cap. image on the left is with it on, right is with it off
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/ms.../pia16005.html

"The only other instrument on Curiosity with a dust cover is the Mars Hand Lens Imager (or MAHLI), located on the rover's arm. In this case, the dust cover is not removed but will be opened when needed. This way, the instrument is protected from dust that may be generated from other tools on the rover's arm, in addition to wind-blown dust"
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  #99  
Old 08-08-2012, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorW View Post
I might be a hard man to please but I've seen better high altitude amateur rocketry video done with cheap gear under Earth conditions (thicker atmosphere, higher gravitational field etc)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorW View Post
The rover weights a tonne anyway so a little bit extra weight could have easily been handled. They had 140 kgs of fuel to spare on the lander module after Curiosity was dropped.
No it could not have been handled without something else being sacrificed. As I said there were 75kgs allocated for science instruments.
Yes a lot of fuel left but it had to be there in case the descent took longer, it was not merely cut off at a specific time but instead autonomously guided down based on the radar measurements etc. So it could have taken longer and they would have needed the extra fuel in that case. The main objective is of course to get down safe.
And it's not as easy as slapping an iPhone onto the rower case... these instruments have to be built to withstand the radiation during the journey through interplanetary space, and the extreme cold/heat they are subjected to. And they must be guaranteed to function flawlessly for years once in Mars' inhospitable environment. They are very thoroughly built and each is the result of large engineering projects and are very expensive undertakings. It's not easy at all and it has nothing to do with amateur rockets in Earth atmosphere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorW View Post
No I wouldn't say hard, probably a little bit more curious than others and a little less accepting of semi-mediocrity.
I must say that then I would expect you to have noticed how NASA pretty much constantly stated that these first images was indeed taken through dust caps and beamed down in low resolution etc.
As already said, there are full resolution images sitting on the rower waiting to be downloaded. The first images were heavily reduced in size and jpg compressed to facilitate easy download within the limited window of opportunity for Earth communication right after the landing. These images so far have also only been taken though the small fish-eye navigation cameras, the big mast with the main cameras is not even deployed yet. Sorry but geez what did you expect to see at this stage? What else would you have done?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorW View Post
I think NASA needs more PR/media people on their team? To build interest and ultimately funding you need public support and this comes by making an adventure interesting,exciting and interactive.
I for one am extremely excited and interested in this and I know the interest within USA itself is huge. There are also very comprehensive websites for all the rowers, both the 2 old ones and the new one, and many programs for participation of various sorts. For example, the name Curiousity was the result of a competion for primary school children to come up with the best name, and I noticed the 10 year old girl who came up with 'Curiousity' was present at the press briefing right after landing - talk about being involved! There is a big effort going into creating interest in the public, but it's probably more noticeable in the USA of course.
They have had these types of programs for a very long time. Remember the 'Teacher in Space' program where Christa McAuliffe was chosen as an ordinary primary school teacher to go up in space. Sadly she perished with the rest of the crew in the Challenger disaster.

But please tell us what they should do instead then?
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  #100  
Old 08-08-2012, 03:04 PM
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1751712.html

Rolf maybe I'm expecting to much from NASA and $2.5 billion, regardless I'm not the only one making similar analogies
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