Pony Club 19th May

[Rodstar (Rod)]

Have been checking out historical threads on the forum. I found this one from March 2005 which suggests we try a spot in Somersby:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...light=Somersby

This is the thread reporting on how it went:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...hlight=Kulnura

This was the trip to the water tank which Froggy found inferior to his home spot at the Paint Ball site at Kulnura. I note there is reference in the thread to "next Saturday", which may well have been our first visit to Paint Ball.

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by Rodstar

Hey John, it is good stretching our memories with these things!

Actually, Mike Salway and I first observed together when I bought my LX200 in January 2005. I remember Scott Mitchell was another regular face in those days, he was a real character - a shame he had to return to the US. And yes Joe was a regular with Anushka (apologies for spelling) - her home baked cookies were first class!

I used to spend my time in those early days scratching my head as to why the views through my $5000 LX200 were so much inferior to Mike Salway's $800 10 inch dob. It took me a while to accept the superiority of the views through a dob vis-a-vis a Schmidt Cassegrain.

RB used to bring one of his refractors in those days. Amazing views - we used to split doubles and take in fantastic views of the planets.

I also recall with a great deal of fondness my first night at the Paint Ball in 2007 with the Mary Rose. From those dark skies, the views of the Homunculus were simply stupendous!

Hi Rod,

It brings back memories. I didnt realise you and Froggy and Wayne had one observing session up on us prior to 2005 SPSP. I forget Scott Mitchell who I rate as one of the all time nice guys who has moved back to the USA. Scott and Louie used to drive up from Sydney every month and were great company. Louis used to bring his Takahashi FS102 and Andrew (RB) used to bring the cigars, port, tim tams and whatever Tak he was playing with at the time.

We had a great thing going. We had people who were learning and people who knew. The people who were learning were very happy to listen and learn from the people who knew. The people who knew were very happy to teach the people who were learning. I remember discussing your 10" LX200 (POS) = Piece of shyt, countless times and telling you where to head with your telescope purchase in the future. Fortunately you listened and now have a cracker.

How downhill it has gone over the years.

I have to say I find leaving you and Andrew Murrell out in the dark last weekend a very piss poor effort.

Cheers,
John B

[iceman (Mike)]

I don't know why people are getting upset over this.

There's no 'ownership' over a central coast observing group. That was the whole point of getting it going - we didn't want to start a 'club' or 'society' - it was just a group of friends getting together to observe.

There's no pecking order, whether you're a regular or a so-called 'blow in', everyone is welcome as far as I'm concerned. I myself haven't been there for quite some time but know that I'll always be welcome and I always recommend newbies head along.

It's very disappointing to see your comments John - it's certainly not very welcoming to newcomers. Noone is calling the shots and in fact you haven't been a regular at the PC for a very long time so it's ill-informed to even make those comments.

What difference does it make what telescope or astronomy knowledge someone has? When Rod and I first started in 2004/2005, I had almost zero knowledge. It didn't stop us from doing something we loved and I certainly wouldn't want your nasty comments from stopping other newcomers from joining a local observing group who go to enjoy each others company and observe together, regardless of their 'status' or so-called observing knowledge.

I also don't think it's fair to make some of the statements you have about in crowd. How many times have you had observing sessions further out at Kulnura or Mogo with your own 'in crowd'?

From my memory, we started going to the PC because froggy left the paintball place, and it got a bit too 'difficult' or 'uncomfortable' having to ask the owners to observe there, and with the changed car park and growing pine trees, our space was getting limited. Alternatively, we had (for a very long time) easy access to the pony club even though we needed a key.

Sure the PC isn't the most ideal place to observe all the time, but it's free, heaps of space, easy to get to and convenient. And sometimes that overrides the perfect dark skies, especially for beginners.

Everyone has their own purpose and what they're trying to get out of it. You didn't come to the PC because it didn't suit your purpose. That's fine for you.
It doesn't make it right to criticise others the way you have, just because their goals don't fit with yours.

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by iceman

It's very disappointing to see your comments John - it's certainly not very welcoming to newcomers.

Mike,

It was very dissappointing for Andrew Murrell to be standing at the gate unable to get in and observe. What newcomers need Mike is to be able to observe with people like Andrew and learn from him and not have him standing at the gate like a stung plover.

As you well know Mike I do an enormous amount to assist newcomers, school children and social groups and have done for many years. As does Andrew.

I also don't think it's fair to make some of the statements you have about in crowd. How many times have you had observing sessions further out at Kulnura or Mogo with your own 'in crowd'?

Rod made those comments not me Mike. However I can tell you the sole reason we went further afield is because the Pony Club site was poor as an observing venue and by then we had burnt our bridges at Paintball Place.

From my memory, we started going to the PC because froggy left the paintball place, and it got a bit too 'difficult' or 'uncomfortable' having to ask the owners to observe there

Froggy left and several people thought we might have to move on. That was not the case. I spoke at length with the Paintball Place owner Brian and he was happy to let us continue using the Paintball Place after Froggy left. In fact I took several school and scout groups out to Paintball after Froggy had left and the group had migrated to the Pony Club. At the same time a couple of the then newcomers wanted a venue that had a warm cosy shed and one of them had access to the Pony Club, so they suggested the group move to PC. Several people went, not realising it wasnt much of an observing site until they got there and it got dark (well nearly dark). Once the group had moved, the die was cast and PC became the permanent venue, despite my protests.

I find it very dissappointing Mike that the really good thing several people started off over 7 years ago has degenerated to the fiasco that occured 2 Saturdays ago where 2 of the original Central Coast group members couldn't get in to observe and most importantly didnt know until the last minute they wouldn't be able to get in. There is a back door entry to PC? It would have been nice for that information to have been shared.

Cheers,
John B

[Rhino1980 (Ryan)]

Wow. I haven't been for ages, life hasn't permitted it. Certainly don't remember anything like what has gone on in the last couple of pages. Thank god for the likes of Geoffro, the two Allans, Deeno, Arthur, Jakob, Rick and the rest who always made a 'blow in' feel welcome. Catch up with you all soon...

[Inmykombi (Geoff)]

I thought I'df throw in my 2 bobs worth.

I take offence to being called part of the " in crowd " or an " A list "

I am merely a part of some regulars who choose to ebserve at the PC with anyone who wants to enjoy a night under the stars.
Including newcomers as I once was.
It may not be the best of places, but its better than my backyard or Terrigal Pub as was mentioned.

And as I chose to go to Bretti for an observing session, I cant see how that I, and a few who do the same can have a finger pointed toward us and be called part of an "A" list.

A few of us go away for a camping / leisure observing weekend and are labelled this way.
I just cant understand it.
All are welcome at Bretti or anywhere else for that matter.

I have made many good friends at the PC, and may not have the Knowledge that some others do, but I am there for a common interest in the night sky, which is a passion I have had since I was a young boy.

Please everyone, lets all work together to enjoy our hooby / pastime / passion.

If anyone can find a better place than the PC as I have tried to do myself on occasion, please find one and stop whining about the PC.

[Shano592 (Shane)]

Personally, I love the PC. It is a darker site than my back yard, which lets me see more. That is all I want. Sydney's lights are a hindrance sometimes, but by no means are they a dealbreaker.

I have been to the PC on more than several occasions, but less than a whole lot of people. I wouldn't count myself as A-List, or even B-List for that matter.

Personally, I don't particularly care. I will talk to whomever wants to talk. If someone wants their space, then I am happy to leave hem to it also, with absolutely no hard feelings.

I think that most people who attend the PC are in pretty much the same mold. There is no superiority, no aggravation, no segregation and certainly no pigeon-holing of people.

I have also arrived to a locked gate and empty paddock. An hour's trip each way. Still, the drive is a nice one. Getting uptight about it won't change a thing. It's unfortunate, but hardly deliberate.

New folks have always been and are still encouraged to look through as many scopes as they can lock their eyes to. Personally, I think that this is one of the finest things about the PC gatherings. No pretence, and whole-hearted welcoming.

If that culture never changes, then surely it is a good thing.


EDIT: I had the opportunity to go to Bretti, as did everyone who can read. I chose instead to go to China.

[Deeno]

I think the last few posts sum up the Pony Club quite elegantly.

As you can plainly see from Rods post the situation regarding the last observing night.

No cloak and dagger conspiracy here!
Try reading the posts...

Originally Posted by Rodstar

In the absence of any response from keyholders, I am officially declaring it off. I have spoken with sally1jack to confirm he is also not coming either.

John - a real shame. It would have been a good night. Hopefully next month.

Now how do I go about getting a key so I can infiltrate the super secret inner sanctum......

[iceman (Mike)]

Originally Posted by ausastronomer

I find it very dissappointing Mike that the really good thing several people started off over 7 years ago has degenerated to the fiasco that occured 2 Saturdays ago where 2 of the original Central Coast group members couldn't get in to observe and most importantly didnt know until the last minute they wouldn't be able to get in. There is a back door entry to PC? It would have been nice for that information to have been shared.

Fiasco?

Hardly a fiasco. As others have said, an unfortunate circumstance but hardly a fiasco.

You haven't been there for years. Andrew hasn't been there for a very long time either. Neither have I.

I know if I was planning to go, I would either:
a) Make sure to let it be known I was going
b) Make sure a keyholder was going
c) Get my own key

Of course it would be disappointing to be at the front gate and not be able to get in, but it's hardly a conspiracy theory. I'd make sure I knew the back entry or got a key for next time.

Andrew is a big boy and if he has a deeper issue with it I'm sure he can bring it up. He doesn't need you coming on to defend him and insult the regulars with your disparaging remarks when you haven't been there for years. You weren't even just insulting the venue - you were insulting the people that go there every month, who you don't know, most of them you haven't met, and have never observed with.
It was just plain out of line.

Whatever the reason for changing to the PC, it matters not. Regulars are regulars because they go every month. It doesn't matter who they are or what their skill level is. I'm at least pleased to see you edited that part out of your insulting post.

Anyone is welcome to try and find an alternative venue. All venues have their pros and cons. Just because you don't like to observe at the PC does not mean others don't, and your remarks are just plain insulting and not warranted at all.

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by iceman

Fiasco?

You haven't been there for years. Andrew hasn't been there for a very long time either.

Yes Mike you are correct I haven't been out there much. The sole reason is because 4 years ago 2 of the then newcomers migrated the group to a clearly inferior site to what we had. There was no need to move the group from Paintball. Brian was more than happy to let us continue using the site after Froggy left and I made that very clear at the time. What was sad was that the first night of observing at Pony Club happened to be a night that Andrew, Gary and I were away in Coonababran with a group of visiting Americans and to be honest Mike I have been ticked off about it for 4+ years. I see it that 2 people who had been part of the group for all of about 5 minutes, essentially came in, took over and moved us unnecessarily to a clearly inferior observing site and in doing so burned our bridges at Paintball. They were welcome to join the group and be part of it. They weren't welcome to take over the show and move us IMO.

Cheers,
John B

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Mike,

What we had at Paintball was a great group of people at a very good observing site. What you now have at Pony Club is a great group of people at a very ordinary observing site.

The reason I used the term "blow ins" was not to discourage any newcomers or beginners. They always have been and always will be welcome anywhere I observe. Over the years I have bent over backwards to help them. I used the term "blow ins" to describe a couple of people who had been part of the group for 5 minutes, took over the show and moved it to an inferior site.

I am not ticked off by what happened 2 Saturdays ago. Andrew, Rod and Phil are big enough boys to defend themselves. I am ticked off by what happened 4+ years ago.

Cheers,
John B

[iceman (Mike)]

That's just not how I remember it John, and I find it extraordinary that you'd still actively hang onto something like that 4+ years later.

Noone forced anyone to use a new site, and noone took over the group. If the majority preferred to go to the Pony Club, it's because they felt it was a better observing site for them.

[Rodstar (Rod)]

Originally Posted by Deeno

I think the last few posts sum up the Pony Club quite elegantly.

As you can plainly see from Rods post the situation regarding the last observing night.

No cloak and dagger conspiracy here!
Try reading the posts...



Now how do I go about getting a key so I can infiltrate the super secret inner sanctum......

Hey Deeno!

I have no desire to create waves, and as you would be aware from this thread, I have not become caught up in the debate John has raised about the change of venue, the suitability of the venue, the observing skills or interests of those who now attend the PC, or how or why there was a change of venue. As Mike has rightly indicated, we are all free agents, and no one forced anyone to change venues, etc. and I have no desire to get embroiled in that discussion, regardless of my personal views of those issues.

I like the bunch of people who regularly come to the PC, and it is always great to get out when possible. We have had some great observing experiences together, and I have enjoyed our time together at the PC over the years.

The ONLY issue I have raised is over your choice of words in one sentence. Maybe you did not intend to say what your words, on their face, suggest, and I would therefore be very pleased if this could be cleared up.

As a matter of simple construction (pardon the lawyer in me), the import of your words which I quoted in my original response to you is:

1. There exists two groups of people - regulars and non-regulars.
2. All regulars are aware that there is an alternative access to the site which does not require a key
3. As Phil, Andrew M and I did not know about the alternative access, we are non-regulars.

The implication of this is that our not being able to observe at the PC this last time was our fault - for not being regulars. If we had been regulars, we would not have encountered this difficulty.

Words matter. When I read your post, I was offended. This is because I have been going to the PC for years, and I believe that if you added up all of my attendances, I would have been as many times as anyone in the group. I have made an enormous contribution to the group over many years, spending countless hours showing people the sky through the Mary Rose. Being described as a non-regular, and this being given as the reason for why I could not access the PC, is, to me, an offensive suggestion.

This is why I then spelled out the necessary implication of your statement. On YOUR version of the situation, while many of those in the know (the regulars) were up at Bretti enjoying their observing, those not in the know (the non-regulars) were unable to access the PC. I was teasing out the logical consequences of YOUR statement. I was not suggesting that I believe in a cloak and dagger conspiracy, rather, I was pointing out the implications of your statement.

I think it is very unfortunate that people such as Phil, Andrew M and me have not been made aware of the alternative access. As a group, we should be better at sharing this sort of information, to avoid situations like what happened last time. It would have been very helpful if, just once, when on the endless chatter on the forum about whether a keyholder would be present, someone, anyone, who knew about the alternative access could have said something, rather than remaining silent about it.

I would be appreciative is someone could show the alternative access point to me next time I am up there, so that there is no repeat of last month.

It's all good!

[Shano592 (Shane)]

This is probably getting a little out of hand here, and tempers are rising, that don't necessarily need to.

My recommendation is that if any one has issues with another, to leave it off the forums and talk out any differences face to face. At the Pony Club, perhaps, over a beer or 5.

I'm told that amber liquid, shared in groups is supposed to be a good tonic ...

[Deeno]

Yes Rod, I do apologise. I certainly did not intend to segregate an 'us and them' mentality as there is none.
I wrote that post in haste and it is poorly phrased....

Its not a club or organisation and there is no hierarchy. These nights are very loosly thrown together.....You just need to read the threads!

[Irish stargazer (John)]

Ah, this brings back memories of the Shannonside astronomy club and it's observing nights. To avoid situations like this, which are unavoidable when the weather is hit and miss or not many people are available. A few people were assigned as observing directors who had "keys". A text alert would then be sent out to everyone who had put their mobile on the observing list saying the event was on and at what time (if it looked promising). The assigned key holder would turn up rain or shine (mainly rain where I come from ). This avoided the "maybes" on the forum pages and you were assured that at least one person would be there with access. We always got a good turn out even on dodgy nights.
It's the lack of a definite commitment that may put people off going.
Just my thoughts as a newcomer

[gb_astro]

I am really really surprised anyone is recommending accessing the PC through the side gate.

As far as I know the PC does not have any right of way, right of access or even a verbal agreement with that adjacent land owner to use his driveway to enter the PC.
That side gate is a good 150 metres from the front street boundary so if you meet the owner coming the other way it might be a bit awkward trying to say you just pulled off the road to check your directions. The straight fact is that if you are on that adjacent land you are trespassing.

That members have been using it and no one has yet been challenged is just a matter of luck and as we all know luck eventually runs out in time.

That challenge almost happened to me a couple of months ago.
Myself and Joe, who also did not have a key, used the side gate to access the PC on a Friday night.
When we left about 1am we got lost trying to relocate gate.
We eventually found the it. Joe left first while I stayed to close the gate.
As I was doing that I could see the headlights of an approaching car coming up from somewhere far down the track.
Our five minutes of driving in circles around all those trees in the dark was apparently enough to arouse the suspicions of the neighbour.
Not feeling too brave by myself at that time of night I decided to just get out of there.

However a couple of kilometres down the road the guy was right behind me flashing his lights.
I pulled over expecting the worse. I think he was expecting the worse too so he approached pretty cautiously and said he just wanted to know what I was doing around there.
When I told him I had just been at the PC he calmed down and fell back on a story of how there had been a lot of burglaries around there lately and as he had seen lights in the trees around his place he had rushed out to investigate.
I am positive I got to the main road before he saw me so I assume he assumed I had left the PC via the PC main entrance.
If he had seen me on his property I think his attitude would of been a lot more hostile and I can completely understand why.

This was quite a scary incident especially when I consider the possible less favourable outcomes to the situation.
To prevent it happening to anyone else I strongly suggest we try to forget all about that side gate.

The only reason I decided to use the side gate in the first place was that I assumed that it must be close enough to the main road so that you could zip through it before anyone would notice.
At about 150 meters off the main road this is definitely not the case..

Greg.

[gb_astro]

Good to see the dust finally settling a bit around here.

To avoid another 19th of May I think we just need to get a few more keys out there, starting with Rod, if he wants one.

Anybody object to that?

If no objections perhaps Allan or one of the other key holders could post him a copy?

As long as we can insure each social group at the PC has potential access to a key this situation should not happen again.

Greg.

(This thread reads like one of those reality disaster docos where it takes a string of otherwise minor incidences to bring the plane down! )

[Irish stargazer (John)]

The first time I went to the PC I parked in the side road a few metres off the main road waiting for someone to arrive and open the PC main gate. A car pulled up beside me and politely told me I was on private property.

[Irish stargazer (John)]

Originally Posted by gb_astro

Good to see the dust finally settling a bit around here.

To avoid another 19th of May I think we just need to get a few more keys out there, starting with Rod, if he wants one.

Anybody object to that?

If no objections perhaps Allan or one of the other key holders could post him a copy asap?

As long as we can insure each social group at the PC has potential access to a key this situation should not happen again.

Greg.

(This thread reads like one of those reality disaster docos where it takes a string of otherwise minor incidences to bring the plane down! )

How about a key holder sound off. Who actually has a key?