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Old 31-08-2011, 11:12 AM
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Steve Jobs's legacy

I know I will be hated even more by some for posting this link..
But what the heck We have to see both sides of the story, always.
http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opin...830-1jk04.html
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Old 31-08-2011, 11:16 AM
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Like it or not the bloke is a genius and has revolutionized the way we do things now and will for a while.
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Old 31-08-2011, 11:25 AM
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It is interesting, a relatively closed system has advantages and disadvantages.
I prefer closed systems for most of my work, they just have less noise and hassles, and are diverse enough to not usually be constrictive, but I prefer more open systems for 'play' and more tacky/DIY type stuff.
So a linux/windows PC for hacking about and a Macbook for all my serious work.
Steve Jobs is an oddity for sure, he goes against all of the modern 'formulas for success' and shows that there is a downside to committee based design and the Homer's Car approach to trying to give people what they say they want. He bucks that trend and tells people what they want, and is often right. He is a visionary and a mongrel, as are most people at the hyper-end of success.
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Old 31-08-2011, 12:15 PM
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http://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/j...bs-061505.html

I find him inspiring.

H
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Old 31-08-2011, 01:03 PM
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He certainly drove the apple brand to the top, lets not forget that apple really started the windows type phenomenon, instead of dos based programmer language, only for Microsoft to leap ahead.

I can't fault apple gadgets particularly, they work, do exactly what they are meant to do ( and no more) I find he iPad great, I know people grumble about cost of things but hey you can buy a fully functional astro program for about 20 dollars and get free updates for life ( almost perhaps), a windows based product of similar nature will cost 100s.

No viruses either.

Visionary..... Maybee but he certainly hit the button for products, although smart phones are now made by everyone, tablets are being copied. If apple wants to stay ahead it needs new ideas, and let's face it before the iphone they weren't going anywhere.

As for Steve jobs, a cruel way to go, drop out at your peak to a horrible disease which is one of the most lethal varieties.

Like or loathe him, he certainly drove technology for he masses.... So where to next?
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Old 31-08-2011, 02:14 PM
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Apple products still get this old cynic excited.
Perfect mix of style, function, innovation and fun.

Don't know much about all the negative stuff now being dredged up, but I suppose if you put many huge corporations under the microscope you would find something undesirable to somebody.
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Old 31-08-2011, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemy View Post
lets not forget that apple really started the windows type phenomenon
Nope... they pinched it from Xerox See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star
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Old 31-08-2011, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
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Nope... they pinched it from Xerox See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Star
Apple didn't merely "pinch" it - they paid a blanket fee to license a group of WIMP/GUI technologies from Xerox PARC in the form of a pre-IPO stock swap with Apple. Many of the PARC engineers moved to Apple as well and worked on Lisa/Macintosh.

Prior to that, Xerox had NO idea what to do with it. The Star was never intended to be commercialised. It took Jobs to realise its commercial value and further engineer the GUI I/F and added manipulatable icons, the menu bar and drag n' drop functionality within the file system. Bill Gates then truly "pinched" this from Apple a little later.
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Old 31-08-2011, 03:52 PM
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Bill Gates then truly "pinched" this from Apple a little later.
Yes he reversed the / to \ and called it DOS
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Old 31-08-2011, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supernova1965 View Post
Yes he reversed the / to \ and called it DOS
Before this turns into another Apple vs. Microsoft thread lets not forget Bill Gates is an engineer and Microsoft did a lot of coding for Apple. Steve Jobs has the creative flair but Apple wouldn't be where it is today without Microsoft and vice versa.
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Old 31-08-2011, 03:58 PM
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We're talking GUI Warren, so no, not DOS - Windows. He saw it at his first GUI running on a Lisa at Apple's offices and "had to have it". He told Steve Balmer that Microsoft depended on it.
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Old 31-08-2011, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
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Before this turns into another Apple vs. Microsoft thread lets not forget Bill Gates is an engineer and Microsoft did a lot of coding for Apple. Steve Jobs has the creative flair but Apple wouldn't be where it is today without Microsoft and vice versa.
Oh don't get me wrong I really respect Bill Gates and all he does for the world he gives huge amounts of money for lots of great causes.
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Old 31-08-2011, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
Apple didn't merely "pinch" it - they paid a blanket fee to license a group of WIMP/GUI technologies from Xerox PARC in the form of a pre-IPO stock swap with Apple.
Strange that Xerox tried to sue Apple then...

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/24/bu...le-barred.html
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Old 31-08-2011, 04:40 PM
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Strange that Xerox tried to sue Apple then...

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/24/bu...le-barred.html

"Garbage"... or is that "Trash"! It depends who you choose to listen to.

Quote:
Myth: Apple Stole GUI from Xerox PARC Alto computer

Whenever Apple tries to protect its intellectual property (this week Apple sued HTC for patent infringement of patented iPhone technology), there will be few people who parrot variation of this myth: “Apple stole GUI from PARC / Xerox.”

The Apple stole GUI myths contain these components:
- Theft of intellectual property by Apple
- Implying that Apple plagiarized the code and overall functionality of Xerox PARC GUI for the Macintosh
- Number of mini-myths and variations

Is it a case of “Good Artists Borrow, Great Artists Steal?”

Apple Stole Gui? Did Apple Steal Xerox PARC GUI Intellectual Property Without Permission?

Myth:
Apple CEO Steve Jobs saw Xerox PARC product such as the GUI, either on a tour or at a trade show, then stole the PARC GUI implementation without permission, to create the Apple Lisa and the original Mac OS / Macintosh GUI.


Fact:
Apple obtained permission ahead of the Xerox PARC visit. In addition, Apple provided compensation in exchange for the various Xerox PARC ideas such as the GUI.

The Motley Fool, financial publication of investment news and provider of investment advisory services, on the real story of Apple and PARC:

“Xerox could have owned the PC revolution, but instead it sat on the technology for years. Then, in exchange for the opportunity to invest in a hot new pre-IPO start-up called “Apple,” the Xerox PARC commandos were forced — under protest — to give Apple’s engineers a tour and a demonstration of their work. The result was the Apple Macintosh, which Microsoft later copied to create Windows.” [1]

Xerox Received Financial Compensation from Apple

The compensation for the Xerox PARC technology sharing deal with Apple was in form of $1 million dollars pre-IPO Apple stock / investment (if Apple does well, Xerox will benefit from Apple’s success).

The PARC demo took place in 1979. Xerox received its compensation in exchange for showing some prototypes that Xerox didn’t know what to do with.

“November: Steve Jobs and software engineer Bill Atkinson visit the Xerox PARC lab in Palo Alto, California. More Apple employees will visit a month later.” [2]

“Jobs and several Apple employees including Jef Raskin visited Xerox PARC in December 1979 to see the Xerox Alto. Xerox granted Apple engineers three days of access to the PARC facilities in return for the option to buy 100,000 shares of Apple at the pre-IPO price of $10 a share.” [3]
http://obamapacman.com/2010/03/myth-...rox-parc-alto/
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Old 31-08-2011, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemy View Post
He certainly drove the apple brand to the top, lets not forget that apple really started the windows type phenomenon, instead of dos based programmer language, only for Microsoft to leap ahead.

I think credit really has to be given to PARC... they invented a lot of things we take for granted today with respect to communications and computing... http://www.parc.com/about/ Click on the timeline at the bottom of the page... Laser Printing in 1970... anyone remember that? WYSIWYG in '74 and the GUI in '75... these guys were WAY ahead of their time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PARC
This year marks the 40 year anniversary of the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center, usually called Xerox PARC, or now just PARC. Ethernet, Laser printers, the mouse, the Graphical User Interface (GUI) and even the Dynabook all came out of this uncommonly innovative place, and then promptly left the building. In many ways, Xerox PARC is more famous for the innovations that it couldn't hold onto, than the ones it could retain and capitalize on. Today, PARC will celebrate the start of their fifth decade at its Palo Alto headquarters, and I think it's worth looking back to see what can be learned.
http://unweary.com/2010/09/what-left-xerox-parc.html
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Old 31-08-2011, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OICURMT View Post
I think credit really has to be given to PARC... they invented a lot of things we take for granted today with respect to communications and computing... http://www.parc.com/about/ Click on the timeline at the bottom of the page... Laser Printing in 1970... anyone remember that? WYSIWYG in '74 and the GUI in '75... these guys were WAY ahead of their time.



http://unweary.com/2010/09/what-left-xerox-parc.html
THis has been said...

Last edited by Omaroo; 31-08-2011 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 31-08-2011, 05:52 PM
gary
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Windowing systems and GUI's and the mouse

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
Apple didn't merely "pinch" it - they paid a blanket fee to license a group of WIMP/GUI technologies from Xerox PARC in the form of a pre-IPO stock swap with Apple. Many of the PARC engineers moved to Apple as well and worked on Lisa/Macintosh.

Prior to that, Xerox had NO idea what to do with it. The Star was never intended to be commercialised. It took Jobs to realise its commercial value and further engineer the GUI I/F and added manipulatable icons, the menu bar and drag n' drop functionality within the file system. Bill Gates then truly "pinched" this from Apple a little later.
Hi Chris,

Not historically completely correct ...

It was the Xerox Alto, not the Star, that the two groups of Apple engineers who
passed through Xerox PARC saw demonstrated.

The Alto was conceptualized and then first built around '72-'73.

Engineers working on the Apple Lisa wanted to show Jobs the types of
technology they were advocating to use which they had already seen for themselves
at PARC. Jobs was apparently reluctant to go, but he received additional
incentive when Xerox's venture capital division invested some cash into Apple.
The two main Apple visits to PARC were said to be circa 1979.

Keep in mind that the Stanford campus was literally across the road from PARC
and many of the PARC engineers had come from Stanford Research International (SRI),
including Douglas Engelbart, the inventor of the mouse and an early researcher
into the use of networking and hypertext.

PARC was relatively "open" and sometimes students who were friends with workers
there would almost casually come and go, including sitting in on some meetings.
Some Stanford graduate students were also employed part time at PARC.

Simultaneously on the Stanford campus there was what was known as the
Stanford University Network or SUN. They had developed their own Ethernet
connect workstation around 1980 and eventually licensed it to Sun Microsystems
around 1982.

Then over in Massachusetts, Apollo Computer Inc. had been founded in 1980 by
William Poduska (who had previously founded Prime) and they brought out their DN100
workstation in 1981, nearly two years earlier than Sun. Apollo dominated the
professional workstation market in the period 1980-87, eventually being
outstripped by DEC and Sun.

However, these systems, which employed bitmapped displays, a mouse, a networked
file system, distributed networking computing capability and most of the features
we associate today with modern workstations pre-dated the Apple Lisa, which
was not introduced until 1983.

And these workstations out of Apollo Computer were hugely commercially successful.
However, unless you moved in the industries within which they were used -
in aerospace companies such as Boeing, in automotive design, companies
such as Ford, GM & Chrysler and in electronic design, companies such
Mentor Graphics - the lay public would largely be unaware of them.

I had the pleasure of using Apollo's in the 1980's to work on custom application
integrated circuit design and attributes such as 1024x800 and later 1280x1024 bitmapped
displays, four, eight and later forty-plane color graphics, three button mouses, 300MB disk
drives, high speed networking and a windowed GUI made them an absolute pleasure
to use.

So the use of bitmapped displays and windowing and mouses was not first commercially
introduced by Apple in any way nor were they the first to make these technologies
commercially successful.

Anecdotally, when we first saw Lisa's and later Macintosh's at trade shows,
we said to each other "what would we ever do with those?" Compared to the
high-end workstations we were using at the time, these earlier Apple offerings were
really just toys. They didn't have anywhere near the screen sizes, CPU speed,
RAM capacity, disk capacity and networking features for the types of tasks
we were commercially performing, but we did recognize them as some of the
earlier attempts to enter the low-end market. My recollection was that the Lisa
was regarded generally as commercially unsuccessful.

The Xerox Star was a commercial product that was derived from work on the
earlier Alto and was introduced in 1981. Xerox targeted it at the office environment
and though they sold quite a few, like the Lisa, it was never regarded as
commercially successful either.

Readers who are very interested in the history of computing might wish to consider
subscribing to the IEEE "Annals of Computing History".
See http://www.computer.org/portal/web/annals/home
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Old 31-08-2011, 05:58 PM
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What you say is true Gary - except that in "commercial" I was, I apologise, intimating "home" computer - not workstation. Apple did, indeed, bring this technology to the masses where it was previously so far out of reach it was laughable.

I was using IBM 3270-based terminals when I worked there in 1980 that had fairly sophisticated pen-based graphics capabilities - even then. Pity they required rather powerful big iron behind them. LOL!!

I also unpacked the very, very first IBM PC that landed in Australia - and we engineers, too, laughed at it saying that "it'll never catch on" The Charlie Chaplin campaign didn't help its image either...

Last edited by Omaroo; 31-08-2011 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 31-08-2011, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
THis has been said...

ha ha ha ... I started my post, phone rang (I'm at work) ... and I finished it after I hung up... didn't realize you had posted. Obviously, by the difference in the time between our posts you can guess how long the telephone conversation was...


Great minds think alike !
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Old 31-08-2011, 08:31 PM
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Silicon Valley connections

Quote:
Originally Posted by OICURMT;760176[URL
... Laser Printing in 1970... anyone remember that?
The work that was done at PARC for the laser printer used with the Xerox Star
has some other interesting Silicon Valley connections including with Apple.

A couple of guys who worked at Xerox PARC, Chuck Geschke and John Warnock,
helped create a page description language called InterPress.

Geschke and Warnock left PARC in late 1982 to form a little company some readers
of this forum may have heard of called Adobe Systems.

At Adobe, they used their experience from having worked on InterPress and developed
the PostScript page description language which they released around 1984.

In 1985, Apple released the LaserWriter printer which internally had an Adobe
developed controller running an Adobe PostScript interpreter. The print engine
was the Canon CX.

There were already other laser printers on the market before the LaserWriter.

Though the LaserWriter assisted in popularizing PostScript and helped grow the
fortunes of Adobe, the printer itself was more expensive and slower at rendering
printed pages than many other non-PostScript printers based on the Canon CX.

The LaserWriter could communicate with Macs over an RS-422 LocalTalk network
which ran a protocol stack that Apple called AppleTalk. The author of this post
later worked designing laser printer controllers for more than a decade for OEM
customers such as Fuji-Xerox. One of the solutions we helped provide for these
OEM's was LocalTalk connectivity which included our own AppleTalk protocol
stack. By design, AppleTalk was a very clunky, very slow protocol and one had
visions of it being designed by a committee.

HP took the same Canon CX engine that Apple had used in the LaserWriter but
their LaserJet offering propelled HP to be the world's largest printer company.
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