Riots all over London

[bojan]

Originally Posted by jeff65

Where was the outrage over the looting of the entire economy that took place in 2008 and cost many thousands of times more than this episode? It was that looting that led directly to the discontent today. It is possible to take notice of injustice even while holding a Blackberry.

There are already more people in criminal court for the petty looting of today than there have been for the multi-trillion dollar looting that took place three years ago. Those of us caught somewhere in the middle need to insist on equal justice or we should only expect more of the same.

As above, so below.

Yep..
I was robbed then for almost one year of life in retrement.
So now I'll have to talk to Dr Nitschke earlier than was originally planned.

[casstony]

Originally Posted by multiweb

They all had the same opportunities to learn,

That is very far from the truth, even here in Australia.

If you talk to teachers, psychologists and other professionals working in our schools you'll get a better idea of how differing home and school environments send kids on different trajectories.

Children from functional middle class families in good neighbourhoods have a much better chance; they don't go to school and talk about when their brother is getting out of 'juvy' and they don't come home to be put down or abused by their parents. It is a rare individual who can thrive without good role models and a school environment focused on success.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by casstony

That is very far from the truth, even here in Australia.

If you talk to teachers, psychologists and other professionals working in our schools you'll get a better idea of how differing home and school environments send kids on different trajectories.

Children from functional middle class families in good neighbourhoods have a much better chance; they don't go to school and talk about when their brother is getting out of 'juvy' and they don't come home to be put down or abused by their parents. It is a rare individual who can thrive without good role models and a school environment focused on success.

No mate. Sorry but we have all the same opportunities. We have access to the same services. You take it or leave it. But I agree it all starts at home with good parenting and without a good role model it goes south for most of those kids. Only the strong minded do it. But then again it always comes to individual choices. When your best mates come to your place on a Friday night after shool and say come with us tonight we're doing the local electronic shop and there's an Atari console in it for you if you just keep watch at the front, you still can say no. Bottom line is you do the deeds you pay the price if you get caught and they all know it, don't you worry about it. No feeling sorry or sympathy here.

[bojan]

Marc, this is very arrogant from you.
11 year old kid does not have strength to resist his or her mates in most of those things to be done together..
After couple of years, it is already too late and then the legal system has to pick up the pieces of what was supposed to be the job for other agencies (school for the start, familly, social care and so on) years earlier.
I deeply and fundamentally disagree with you on this issue.

[casstony]

Originally Posted by jeff65

Where was the outrage over the looting of the entire economy that took place in 2008 .

I think the main difference is that most people don't understand who is responsible for stealing their savings and tricking them into buying an overpriced house, whereas they can see the little fish busting shop windows on the TV.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by casstony

I think the main difference is that most people don't understand who is responsible for stealing their savings and tricking them into buying an overpriced house, whereas they can see the little fish busting shop windows on the TV.

Well, in my case I had no choice - my superfund invested my money in my name.
At the end, they collected their fees (of course) and I was left with my loss...

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by bojan

Marc, this is very arrogant from you.
11 year old kid does not have strength to resist his or her mates in most of those things to be done together..
After couple of years, it is already too late and then the legal system has to pick up the pieces of what was supposed to be the job for other agencies (school for the start, familly, social care and so on) years earlier.
I deeply and fundamentally disagree with you on this issue.

Bojan you keep coming up with my arrogance Are you telling me an 11yr old doesn't know what's right from wrong? C'mon mate! As a kid I knew where the boundaries of what I could get away with or not even think about going there were.

The core of the problem is at home. The 'system' doesn't fail anybody. That's BS. Granted it's harder on some than others but in the end of the day you only have yourself to blame for what's happening to you. That's life.

[TrevorW]

It's Ok!!, Marc you are allowed to be arrogant, you are French, no !!!

Actually we are a product of our envionment and yes we do have choices

I'm from one of those middle class families raised by my mother after my father passed away when I was only 8 years old. I like my two brothers where taught right from wrong and if we didn't my mother made sure the stings from the belting would instill what was in our long term memories.

We made choices not to mix with the wrong crowd get into fights study etc,and have all ended up being middle class family men who have raised children with similar values yet we have seen the rights of others, police, teachers and parents degraded as we strive to bolster the rights of our children.

some people can find it difficult to make the distinction between what is right and what is wrong like a badly mistreated dog who will attack without thought, yet only through relocation and re-education may that dog change it's way's

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

It's Ok Marc you are allowed to be arrogant, you are French, no !!!

Actually I've got a couple of bottle of wine from Mudgee called 'the arrogant frog'. Nice drop too.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by bojan

Marc, this is very arrogant from you.
11 year old kid does not have strength to resist his or her mates in most of those things to be done together..
After couple of years, it is already too late and then the legal system has to pick up the pieces of what was supposed to be the job for other agencies (school for the start, familly, social care and so on) years earlier.
I deeply and fundamentally disagree with you on this issue.

I would disagree with that. I, myself, were most certainly not swayed by any peer pressure at all during my childhood and adolescent years and I had plenty of opportunities to go off the rails. Just like any other kid. It all depends on how the child is brought up by the parents and the maturity of the child themselves. Ultimately, it boils down to choice...of the parents and of the child, which in turn is a factor of personal responsibility, which in turn is a factor of their personal (dare I say it, spiritual) maturity.

It's a lack of the latter on everyone's part which creates those conditions that ultimately lead to what we've seen in London, and elsewhere.

The social conditions we see in our Western societies are a consequence of immature and corrupt policies on the part of societal leaders and the detrimental social customs that have been allowed to build up over centuries. We have essentially abused ourselves and others to the point that we have come to believe that how we live is the optimum norm, when in fact we're killing one another and ourselves...or will do so if we keep this up.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Bojan you keep coming up with my arrogance

Well, I have no better explanation for the content of your posts at the moment.. so in a way, yes, I am afraid I do, sort of.. nothing personal here of course, there were others expressing similar (even much stronger) views here.

I already said I admire you personally for what you have been able to do for yourself, but you simply can't measure others with the same criteria you used on yourself. I could go astray myself many times, but I didn't.
Yes, c'est la vie but, as a society we should know and do better than that and ensure the more or less equal start for everyone - we can surely afford it, especially if by doing so we can avoid situations like this one in London (and possibly elsewhere) in the future.
Now, don't get me wrong, by NO means I approve of those things.
Like some others here I am just trying to understand and help explain the reasons for those events, one reason being, I definitely don't want to see similar events happening in my neighbourhood (neither anywhere else).
However I don't think that just saying "everybody is responsible for his/her actions and consequences that follow" (as it makes perfect sense from the legal point of view, of course) will really help to understand the roots of the problem and help avoid consequences we are talking about.

Again, in my life I saw many examples of very successful people who would not stand a chance even here in Australia, because of their background and/or financial situation.

On the other hand, I also saw couple of hopeless cases.. it turned out what they really needed was medical (psychiatric) assistance.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by bojan

"everybody is responsible for his/her actions and consequences that follow"

Unfortunately yes - ultimately that's how the real world works. But I won't argue any further. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

[casstony]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Sorry but we have all the same opportunities.

But I agree it all starts at home with good parenting and without a good role model it goes south for most of those kids. .

You seem to have contradicted yourself there Marc - we all have the same opportunities, except for the kids without good role models?

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by casstony

You seem to have contradicted yourself there Marc - we all have the same opportunities, except for the kids without good role models?

Well yeah. Nobody stops you from going to school instead of going rampaging with your mates. It's your choice isn't it? Same for everybody.

[Ray?]

The first thing they should do worldwide is ban hoodies.

[sally1jack (Phil)]

Originally Posted by bojan

However I don't think that just saying "everybody is responsible for his/her actions and consequences that follow" (as it makes perfect sense from the legal point of view, of course) will really help to understand the roots of the problem and help avoid consequences we are talking about.

.

I think Marc is right ultimately everybody is responsible for their actions in one form or another, & i entirely agree that just being responsible for these action doesn't automatically get to the root cause of the problem , the most important aspect should be to focus on how to avoid this in the future, with the political & social direction we have it's difficult to see this type of thing decreasing
phil

[TrevorW]

Originally Posted by Ray?

The first thing they should do worldwide is ban hoodies.

hoodies keep your head warm

they'd only find something else to cover their faces with

[casstony]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Well yeah. Nobody stops you from going to school instead of going rampaging with your mates. It's your choice isn't it? Same for everybody.

You keep reverting to the simplistic attitude that it's the "same for everybody".

These events don't happen in a vacuum, they happen in a context, and if you don't examine the context you're doomed to remain ignorant.

That's my last word on defending the underprivileged for today - gotta take the kids to Taekwondo to learn how to defend themselves against the hoodies.

[astrocookie (Molly)]

the young people involved in these riots have nothing in a world were possesions are everything. now, with innocent lives being put at risk the situation is getting out of hand. so I say use your rubber bullets etc. to regain control, but then look after the poor kids! give them a sense of self worth and all the rest

in my eyes, these riots are just an example of how these kids have been neglected by society and is once the rioting has been stopped, an oppotunity to give these kids a brighter future by giving them better education, more financial assistance for their families...... just think about what caused the riots and then find a way to make the kids happy, not lock them in jail.

[leon]

Marc it seems that you and I are on the same page with this one.

I Agree that young kids are easily lead, and peer pressure can cause them to do silly things or get into the wrong crowd, however at that age they do know what is right and wrong.

Parents have a lot to answer for, with some of them, the others are just a lost cause and nothing offered to them, to help them will be accepted, and they will go down the wrong path for life.

You can say what you like, there is a small percentage of humans that will live like morons all their life till they die, or be killed.
Anyway I will shut up, and say no more.

Leon