Riots all over London

[casstony]

Originally Posted by Waxing_Gibbous

To those who propose a more 'socially equitable' system of economics:
Do you honestly think that the rioters would be any smarter, more resposible or more affluent under any other system?

Under a healthy capitalist system where excesses are allowed to clear via a normal business cycle we would not be facing anything like the current problems. These riots are but a glimpse of what I suspect will be a very bad decade ahead of us.

Short, sharp recessions don't include the necessary time factor for social discontent to grow to dangerous levels. In an effort to avoid recessions we're seeing the stage set for a serious depression and the conflicts that may spring from it.

[leon]

Having a tough time in your life is no excuse for being a moron and destroying other peoples lives and business.

This monitory of scum bags, as just that, stop justifying there actions, because they may be poor, unemployed etc.

I have been unemployed during my life, and wondered where the next dollar would come from, have had a bout of dark times in my life, an have been sick as well.

I didn't torch the neighbors place because they were comfortable with life.

They should be forced, to pay and rebuild every thing they have destroyed, even it takes them a life time, I have no sympathy at all for their so call underprivileged life, they are humans out of control, and need stopping anyway that the police see fit.

Hose them into the gutter where they belong.

Leon

[casstony]

Originally Posted by leon

, stop justifying there actions,

Hose them into the gutter where they belong.

Leon

Nobody in this thread has tried to justify their actions, but if you don't put yourself in their shoes how can you hope to understand what's going on?

I support hosing them into the gutter as a short term solution but it would be better to avoid the set of circumstances which lead to the riots in the first place.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by casstony

Nobody in this thread has tried to justify their actions, but if you don't put yourself in their shoes how can you hope to understand what's going on?

I support hosing them into the gutter as a short term solution but it would be better to avoid the set of circumstances which lead to the riots in the first place.

I totally agree.
The way to go may be a (much) better education for all, less elitism (based on irrelevant things like class, family wealth and/or status and so on. And it has to start ON TIME - for most kids older than 13 it may be too late, because the attitudes and habits are already there.
While I fully admire (rare) people who put enormous effort into their self education, breaking those limitations, for many they are impossible to overcome for whatever reasons - the self-esteem and/or self confidence may be just some of them .
The result is accumulated frustration over the years and generations.. and all this combined with facebook and other modern communication facilities [very cheap nowadays, even poor can afford them with little additional effort (and, after all, today this is a status symbol, n'est-ce pas?) - second hand computers or phones for example] you have meaningless street riots.

Public peace and order is very expensive and not immediately profitable investment.

[multiweb (Marc)]

I'm with Leon on this. They all had the same opportunities to learn, schooling, health care as the rest of us. What they made out of it is where they ended up. No point blaming the 'system'. No scapegoat. Take responsibility in your life, do the right thing or be dealt with swiftly and harshly if you think damaging other's properties is ok. We all work for a living and earn what we've got. So get inline and get a job. Anything.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by multiweb

I'm with Leon on this. They all had the same opportunities to learn, schooling, health care as the rest of us. What they made out of it is where they ended up. No point blaming the 'system'. No scapegoat. Take responsibility in your life, do the right thing or be dealt with swiftly and harshly if you think damaging other's properties is ok. We all work for a living and earn what we've got. So get inline and get a job. Anything.

Well, I of course disagree with this in part of taking responsibilities - it is not always possible to do it, especially if you are on the other end of the food chain..
While I can't really use my own example here, because the political/economy system I was born in eventually collapsed for whatever reasons, I can tell you that for 50 years while it lasted there were NO riots in the streets.. and this was not because of every other person in the street was policeman. It was because the community as a whole cared and finance was not dependent of the charity or donations from the wealthy individuals.
While state welfare certainly helps many, it is NOT an answer.
The whole society must change the goals and ways to achieve them. and it is not easy... maybe even impossible.
But the important thing is to minimise the problems we see today in London, and this must start at very early age.
There will always be misfits who are beyond any help - and for those we have police and prisons.

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

From what I have heard the class system in England is very entrenched and it is not pleasant to be in the underclass I don't think Australians that have not been elsewhere including me can really understand what it's like our class system is very minor compared I think. Not excusing the behaviour just trying to understand the tensions

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by bojan

Well, I of course disagree with this in part of taking responsibilities - it is not always possible to do it, especially if you are on the other end of the food chain..
While I can't really use my own example here, because the political/economy system I was born in eventually collapsed for whatever reasons, I can tell you that for 50 years while it lasted there were NO riots in the streets.. and this was not because of every other person in the street was policeman. It was because the community as a whole cared and finance was not dependent of the charity or donations from the wealthy individuals.

I think your situation might have been different in Eastern Europe Bojan. We're talking about UK here. Taking responsibilities for your life and where it's going is up to you. I've been at the bottom of the food chain. It's not pretty, I didn't like it one bit and I got out of it. Anybody can do it if they can pull their fingers out. There are opportunities wherever you look. It's up to you to make the right choice at the right moment and there's always hard work along the way. Nothing such a freebee. A lot of those young blokes just don't want to work or don't want to do what's available to them.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by supernova1965

From what I have heard the class system in England is very entrenched and it is not pleasant to be in the underclass I don't think Australians that have not been elsewhere including me can really understand what it's like our class system is very minor compared I think. Not excusing the behaviour just trying to understand the tensions

Elitism is present in every country. Australia is probably the only place where people will give you a fair go. If you can do the job they'll give you a crack at it, then you're on your way. In Europe you'll need rock solid qualifications to land a job because there are 1000s of applicants for the one position available so the businesses can be picky and will pick over-qualified candidates. Having said that nobody's stopping you to go to school and learn the best you can while you're there.

[bojan]

Marc,
I really do admire you for what you have done for yourself - but you can't apply this scheme to everybody else - if you try to do it, it may sound quite arrogant.
Majority of people need guidance - and this is missing here, on the large scale.
While I personally do not think much of churches and religions, even that is better than what those kids in UK have now.
A friend of mine (still living in London) has a son.. and he was telling us of what they learn in schools (public).
I can tell you , both my wife and me were absolutely horrified when we hear about the volume and quality..
When I asked him "OK, public education sucks.. why not send him to private school?"
His answer was "well, he will not be happy if he is among upper class.. and it's expensive. So let him be happy".
His son today doesn't have and specific skills, he used to work low paid jobs like photocopying in banks , mail and so on.. he is active Chelsea supporter (football club), he goes regularly to local pub with his mates for glass of Guinness and this is his world today.. he is lucky perhaps and this way of thinking worked for him because he is not very clever and not aggressive neither he was ever ambitious (not sure what is happening when his club wins or loses) , so he is happy ..
But for others... it is a trap.
And only a few (possibly including yourself) can clearly see what is good for them and what is not and even only a small subset of those can actually do something about it and pull themselves out. .

[Ray?]

Here's an interesting take:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ver-riots.html

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by Ray?

Here's an interesting take:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ver-riots.html

Yes, very interesting huh..?

Just love all the expert opinions in this thread, no wonder some people here still refuse to accept the findings of the worlds most reputable souces on other matters - it all makes perfect sense.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Yes, very interesting huh..?

Just love all the expert opinions in this thread, no wonder some people here still refuse to accept the findings of the worlds most reputable souces on other matters - it all makes perfect sense.

Good one MP mike. Subtle Like everything else you believe in but others don't necessarily do?

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

And I'm sure that all those in Court now for looting are very very sorry. Not sorry they were looting, sorry they were caught. Very few will learn a lesson from this.

[bojan]

Still, those were just opportunists (and yes, they should go to jail, I have no reservations about this)... how about majority of those in the streets? Who are they?

Or it is again just the repeated version of '60ies student riots in Europe [Red Brigades, children of wealthy against the fundamentals of rotten society (I wonder where are they now? they are perhaps the parents of those kids)] ?

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Good one MP mike. Subtle Like everything else you believe in but others don't necessarily do?

He he, I can squeak the stupidity of climate change denial in anywhere - it relates on so many levels

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

He he, I can squeak the stupidity of climate change denial in anywhere - it relates on so many levels

I wonder if those riots CO2 output are going to be tax deductible

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

I wonder if those riots CO2 output are going to be tax deductible

Hmmm? yeahhh like a carbon off set... you're on to something

[higginsdj]

Being the cynic, I can't help but think that this was mass hysteria whipped up by a minority who's sole aim was to steal and use the size of the unrest to cover their tracks. How many 'kids' know how to efficiently cut into an ATM to remove it's cash?

[jeff65 (Jeff)]

Where was the outrage over the looting of the entire economy that took place in 2008 and cost many thousands of times more than this episode? It was that looting that led directly to the discontent today. It is possible to take notice of injustice even while holding a Blackberry.

There are already more people in criminal court for the petty looting of today than there have been for the multi-trillion dollar looting that took place three years ago. Those of us caught somewhere in the middle need to insist on equal justice or we should only expect more of the same.

As above, so below.