Mars Dry as a Dead Dingo

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by renormalised

... in order to show that chaos theory/complexity has any benefit or application towards any science, you have to show that it applies to the theories and processes that those sciences already espouse.

If you can show that chaos has any application to fossilisation, sedimentation processes, ore forming processes, orogenesis, coal and oil formation, remote sensing, structural geology etc etc etc,
...

Like any theory, it's just a tool that can be applied in some situations, but not all.

Fractals are the hallmarks of a Chaotic process. Fractals are found in everywhere nature especially in geological structures:

Examples include clouds, river networks, fault lines, mountain ranges, craters, snow flakes, crystals, lightning, cauliflower or broccoli, and systems of blood vessels and pulmonary vessels, and ocean waves. DNA and heartbeat can be analyzed as fractals. Even coastlines may be loosely considered fractal in nature.

Take a look at the list of random and natural fractals by Hausdorff dimension (the means for confirming a fractal)… one is called the 'Wiener' Process, or 'Brownian motion' .. the random drifting of particles suspended in a fluid, (a liquid or a gas), or the mathematical model used to describe such random movements, which is often called a particle theory.
Brownian motion is the basis for all known sedimentary formation and mineral deposition, as well as the basis for countless other geological processes.

The distribution of galaxy clusters is another fractal with a measured (SDSS data) dimension approximately equal to 2. The surface of the human brain is also fractal. The surface of the human lung has been formed by a naturally occurring chaotic process of dimension approximately 3. Biology follows chaotic processes and leaves the evidence in the form of fractals. Life most probably emerged from chaotic processes .. the evidence remains in these very organ structures and cellular processes.

The same applies in geological structures. The evidence is there in fractal patterns. Geologists need to come out of the past, and start paying attention to modern techniques and the macro-scale evidence.

Cheers

[xelasnave]

mmm the Fractal Universe eh Craig.
Very interesting stuff I thought this math was only used for neck tie designs in the 70,s. and far out art work, now even mother nature is into it.
alex

[xelasnave]

I checked and there is...
http://www.fractaluniverse.org/v2/?page_id=2
alex

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Fractals are the hallmarks of a Chaotic process. Fractals are found in everywhere nature especially in geological structures:

Yes, they are. But because they appear in geological structures doesn't mean all geological structures come from fractals.

Originally Posted by CraigS

Take a look at the list of random and natural fractals by Hausdorff dimension (the means for confirming a fractal)… one is called the 'Wiener' Process, or 'Brownian motion' .. the random drifting of particles suspended in a fluid, (a liquid or a gas), or the mathematical model used to describe such random movements, which is often called a particle theory.
Brownian motion is the basis for all known sedimentary formation and mineral deposition, as well as the basis for countless other geological processes.

Prove it. Only during the the actual deposition of the sediments does brownian motion even come into it. And as for mineral deposition....only in hydrological situations will you get mineral deposition and concentration via brownian motion. Even there, brownian motion is only applicable in certain energy regimes. As far as other instances of mineral deposition are concerned, brownian motion only plays a very small part in mineral deposition. DLA can be seen in mineral deposits, but only in the growth of some crystals structures, not in the mechanisms of ore formation themselves.

You need to take some courses in geology and hydrogeology.

Originally Posted by CraigS

The distribution of galaxy clusters is another fractal with a measured (SDSS data) dimension approximately equal to 2. The surface of the human brain is also fractal. The surface of the human lung has been formed by a naturally occurring chaotic process of dimension approximately 3. Biology follows chaotic processes and leaves the evidence in the form of fractals. Life most probably emerged from chaotic processes .. the evidence remains in these very organ structures and cellular processes.

Yes, I agree with what you have said here. Chaos theory has been applied in biology, physics, astronomy and various other fields. But not in geology and not because it's not been applied before, but because it's not overly applicable to the field.

Originally Posted by CraigS

The same applies in geological structures. The evidence is there in fractal patterns. Geologists need to come out of the past, and start paying attention to modern techniques and the macro-scale evidence.

Cheers

Not all geological structures are fractal patterns....the drainage patterns along mountain ranges might be fractal, but the mountains themselves are hardly fractal. There is no self similarity between the internal rock structures/mineralogy etc, within the mountains themselves and the large scale processes/structure of the mountains. The same with sedimentary sequences...no self similarity. Nor with the formation of ore deposits. Nor with the motion and formation of the plates and their internal structures and physical processes that occur within them.

Geologist are very much at the forefront of mathematical modelling, modern techniques and are very aware of chaos theory. They also deal with evidence from the micro to the macro scale, it's part of their job description. If the felt that chaos theory was applicable to their overall line of study, they'd use it.

Chaos is only applicable where you have those regimes where the maths may apply, such as in magmatic fluid flow, some diffusion processes, fault generation etc. Basically, geophysics.

[xelasnave]

The site I linked is a worry .. he starts...

The Big Bang theory is a failure. It has failed because the wrong guesses were made by Einstein and Friedman. Their equations ignored electricity’s dominant role in the universe

Its hard to read on when they attack folk... and EU folk would like this chap. He has an electrifying solution to most things I openned a new thread as I thought fractals deserved a special new thread.

alex

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

The site I linked is a worry .. he starts...

The Big Bang theory is a failure. It has failed because the wrong guesses were made by Einstein and Friedman. Their equations ignored electricity’s dominant role in the universe

Its hard to read on when they attack folk... and EU folk would like this chap. He has an electrifying solution to most things I openned a new thread as I thought fractals deserved a special new thread.

alex

He probably is an EU advocate (and possibly an T'bolts member). These guys have got electricity on the brain. Yet, not one of them is a bright spark They have no proof at all of their ideas. What alerts you to this is their emphatic statements about the failures of this and that theory and their dogmatic insistence of the veracity of their own.

[xelasnave]

I think that having been guilty personaly of similar behaviour when I was deeply into the push gravity concept I am very critical of such behaviour in others...the reformed smoker syndrom...
BUt it turned me off certainly.
It takes me all my net time just to cover legitimate information of which I can only glean a small fraction so no time to read much other really...
I find the time I spend here very rewarding following the thread re relativity I learnt things from everyones input ... and that is the case with most threads I follow here.
Dont ever leave Carl because folk upset you I find your input excellent.
alex

[CraigS]

Here's an interesting article which clearly demonstrates an example of where chaos theory and fractal geometry has been used successfully in a geological field of study. The study topic was growth of rock features at Angel Terrace, Mammoth Hot Springs in Yellowstone National Park.

Although the rock motifs may look randomly arranged by precipitation, scientists are continually discovering more patterns to the growth formations. In the past, scientists thought that the rock architecture surrounding calcium carbonate springs (either hot or cold) could only be explained by detailed analysis of the crystal structure, water chemistry, and perhaps the metabolic activity of the microbes that populate the spring water.

Now, scientists from the University of Illinois suggest that large scale structures near hot springs can be understood using a simple, generic model based that depends not on such specific details, but rather on broad physical principles such as the dynamics of fluids, precipitation and crystal growth.

“Earlier work [on rock growth] has concentrated on much smaller length scales, trying to understand the crystal morphology, and so on,” Goldenfeld told PhysOrg.com. “I don't think many people thought about trying to understand the whole landscape: at first sight it seems impossible!”
...
“Our preliminary simulations indicate that at least some statistical measures of the landscapes, such as the pond size distribution function, are fractal,” they conclude in the paper. Goldenfeld also added that a following paper, which is being readied for publication, has gone “well beyond the speculations” in this paper, and that “the modeling approach works spectacularly well.”

Clearly, this is a case where looking for the fractality in the landscape advanced the study dramatically. The study went on to develop the understanding of how living organisms are effected by the changing environment.

Horse for courses ? Of course .. I have no problems with that.

Here's another one where the CSIRO figured out a way to improve the in-situ leaching process to extract ore deposits:

"What is needed is a way to ‘stir’ the {leaching} solution while it is underground and that’s where chaos theory comes into the equation."

My point is simply that wherever chaos thinking and fractal geometry perspectives are included in the study of natural phenomena (including geology/geophysics, etc), large advances in understanding are reported. Deterministic predictions may, (or may not) be possible at certain scales, but this is not the only goal of adopting a broadened outlook, which different perspectives offer.

When comparing the invocation of planet-wide catastrophes, (which should be the last alternative), versus simply confronting the possibility of unpredictability offered by chaos thinking, the evidence is in such cases, that greater advances in understanding can be achieved by adopting the chaos perspectives, and this is commonplace within mainstream scientific models.

There are many, many other such case examples from the geological sciences.

Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Here's an interesting article which clearly demonstrates an example of where chaos theory and fractal geometry has been used successfully in a geological field of study. The study topic was growth of rock features at Angel Terrace, Mammoth Hot Springs in Yellowstone National Park.

Clearly, this is a case where looking for the fractality in the landscape advanced the study dramatically. The study went on to develop the understanding of how living organisms are effected by the changing environment.

So what. That's one example of where chaos theory is applicable and one that I've already mentioned....fluid dynamics. That still doesn't make chaos theory applicable to every facet of the subject. The study still hasn't taken into account the growth of the crystals, thermal and chemical processes driving precipitation etc. Also, the role of biological organisms in mineral deposition. All it has done is model a broad scale process that helps sculpt the morphology of the deposits.

In the final analysis it's no big deal at all. Nothing that hasn't already been considered.

Originally Posted by CraigS

Here's another one where the CSIRO figured out a way to improve the in-situ leaching process to extract ore deposits:

My point is simply that wherever chaos thinking and fractal geometry perspectives are included in the study of natural phenomena (including geology/geophysics, etc), large advances in understanding are reported. Deterministic predictions may, (or may not) be possible at certain scales, but this is not the only goal of adopting a broadened outlook, which different perspectives offer.

That is about ore recovery, not about ore deposit formation. It's not a study of the natural phenomena that generate ore deposits. Just a study of how fluid dynamics used in a certain way can make presently uneconomic ore deposits viable.

As I have repeatedly said, chaos theory and fractals are only applicable where the possibilities for non linear interactions occur. That by no stretch of the imagination includes all of geology, or any other subject for that matter. It may help in the greater understanding of processes within fluid dynamics, stress analysis and such, but that's about all.

Originally Posted by CraigS

When comparing the invocation of planet-wide catastrophes, (which should be the last alternative), versus simply confronting the possibility of unpredictability offered by chaos thinking, the evidence is in such cases, that greater advances in understanding can be achieved by adopting the chaos perspectives, and this is commonplace within mainstream scientific models.

Why should anything be the last alternative....in science you formulate a hypothesis and then try to falsify it to test its veracity. No idea should be left out until either one of two things have occurred.....it's found to be false or previous studies have shown it's not applicable in the first place.

Chaos theory and unpredictability is no more or less a viable explanation than planet wide catastrophism or any other explanation....so long as there is evidence to support these explanations. Their applicability all depends on the evidence. All the computer modelling and simulations mean jack unless you have the physical evidence present in the real world to show that their application is the most logical case. Even then, it doesn't rule out the other explanations if the evidence also points equally towards those conclusions.

You have a seemingly irrational aversion to catastrophism. If it explains why something happened without having to resort to more esoteric, simulations based explanations, then why not use it. In any case, catastrophism is chaotic in nature itself. It's the result of non linear processes. Deterministic chaos may be one of the mechanisms behind the causes of what happens in natural systems but it is not, in general, the decisive agent of what drives any change. It's a cog in a much greater machine.

Don't get overly excited about simulations and mathematical modelling. It might look good but it's not always applicable to the real world.

Originally Posted by CraigS

There are many, many other such case examples from the geological sciences.

Cheers

Where are they..........list 100 of them.

[CraigS]

Self-organization of sandpile models...

Dutch mathematician Anne Fey has investigated probability calculations in mathematical sandpile models. Although the rules of the model are simple, the wide-ranging behaviour that emerges from these is fascinating. Fey's research concerned various forms of self-organisation in these models. Practical applications are, for example, movements in the Earth's crust, stock market fluctuations and the formation of traffic jams.
…
Although the rules of the model are simple, the wide-ranging behaviour that emerges from these is fascinating. Sandpile models exhibit various forms of self-organisation and patterns are formed which are stable over the course of time. That is seen most clearly in the case where only the height of the mid-point increases. The sand then spreads out symmetrically in highly angulated forms, in which fractal patterns develop. Fractal patterns have an infinite quantity of details in which designs are repeated on an increasingly smaller scale – this is comparable to ice crystals and certain corals.
...
In the other situations, the choice of the point where the height increases is random. Then 'self-organised criticality' occurs, a deeper form of self-organisation that is also studied in diverse research areas such as movements in the Earth's crust, stock market fluctuations and the formation of traffic jams.

[CraigS]

Another one where researchers are actually 'truing up' the fractal algorithm originally assumed …
UQ researchers break the law -- of physics

Two UQ Science researchers have proved two famous physical laws that have been widely used for the past 25 years do not always work.
…
Dr Tony Roberts and PhD student Christophe P. Haynes, from the School of Maths and Physics, showed the fractal-Einstein and Alexander-Orbach laws can fail in some instances, and have derived a new law to replace them.
…
“We demonstrated unequivocally that two 'exact' foundational laws of fractal science, which have been cited over 2000 times in the scientific literature, can fail for a class of fractals,” he said.
…
Dr Roberts said the laws in question were used to describe how particles diffuse in complex environments, which lies at the heart of range of big scientific questions.
…
“We were tearing our hair out because we were staring into the unknown, we were considering behaviour that people hadn't conceived of before,” he said.
“So it took 7 or 8 months to work it into a new law and get it published but it's done."

Whilst perhaps not entirely related to geology, the diffusion of particles in complex environments is.

The point of this article is that pondering of fractals and chaos has led to the development of a new law in physics.

Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

Where can it be applied to movements within the Earth's crust??. Has it been applied at all or is this, like all the mentions of what chaos is applicable to, just a suggestion. In any case, what would a mathematician know about geology. Very little in most cases. They may think that it's applicable but these models have to be shown to be applicable...not just in the models themselves, but to real world situations. The evidence has to be there in the rocks themselves. If it's not, then the model is a false model in this particular case.

That wasn't a good enough article. You still have 100 to go.

[CraigS]

Rills and gully formation …

"Our laboratory landscape showed the same thing," he says, "rills grow and evolve in time and space, erosional processes get arrested and reach an endpoint. After that, they don't produce much sediment."

To model how rills and gullies form, Bennett and his students built a rainfall soil erosion facility, erecting a 30-foot by 8-foot flume containing eight tons of soil, which allowed them to monitor their simulated landscape, looking for disturbances in the soil and the creation of rills and gullies.

Using digital cameras positioned directly above the flume, they developed digital elevation models of the topography across the flume, at millimeter-scale accuracy.
…
The images also revealed with startling clarity the fractal patterns that the simulated storm created in the landscape.

"Fractal organization is one of the most compelling ideas in science," says Bennett."While I always knew that landscapes had fractal characteristics, I never saw it demonstrated so clearly as when I saw these treelike patterns in the images we took of our rill networks.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Another one where researchers are actually 'truing up' the fractal algorithm originally assumed …
UQ researchers break the law -- of physics

Whilst perhaps not entirely related to geology, the diffusion of particles in complex environments is.

The point of this article is that pondering of fractals and chaos has led to the development of a new law in physics.

Cheers

Only in certain situations. You still haven't adequately answered the question....where are they.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Rills and gully formation …

That's geomorphology, not geology. I have no arguments in this case, but you still haven't answered the question in pertinence to geology.

[renormalised (Carl)]

If you want to see where chaos and fractals have anything to do with geology, buy yourself this textbook...

http://www.fishpond.com.au/Books/Fra...and+geophysics

It's about the only one you're going to find.

[renormalised (Carl)]

In any case, this is going way off topic. Let's get back to the dead dingo