Base load power

[TrevorW]

I'm all for alternative energy as long as it doesn't cost me more for the same, anything that will reduce my power bills in the long run and impove the environment, but I'm not for more expensive electricity, or manufacturers or electricity producers creating strategies or moving offshore etc to avoid working towards acheiving that goal at my expense

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Touche! Spoken like a true MP. Mate it's rubbing off

Hmm Hon Mike Sidonio Labor MP for IIS Left ..has a ring to it

Hey, and you could be Hon Marc Aragnou Liberal MP for IIS Right .

Aaaand then, we can tell people that when we say things sort of off the cuff it may not be the full or gospel truth but if it is fully scripted first then everyone can trust what we have said...(even if we do change our minds afterwards) spoken by Hon Tony Abbott MP (Circa 2009)

You in?

[marki]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Hmm Hon Mike Sidonio Labor MP for IIS Left ..has a ring to it

Hey, and you could be Hon Marc Aragnou Liberal MP for IIS Right .

Aaaand then, we can tell people that when we say things sort of off the cuff it may not be the full or gospel truth but if it is fully scripted first then everyone can trust what we have said...(even if we do change our minds afterwards) spoken by Hon Tony Abbott MP (Circa 2009)

You in?

Yeah you guys do that and I will be the Governor General. You are both fired

Mark

[TrevorW]

I was going to say I'd be the "Queen" but that just didn't come out right

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

I'm all for alternative energy as long as it doesn't cost me more for the same, anything that will reduce my power bills in the long run and impove the environment, but I'm not for more expensive electricity, or manufacturers or electricity producers creating strategies or moving offshore etc to avoid working towards acheiving that goal at my expense

It may cost more but it is not for the same thing as you are paying to maintain the planet for the next generation and I believe we have contributed to the current state of the environment.

Making sure the future generations can have the same environmental living conditions we take for granted is our responsibility we are the custodians of this world not the owners we are the current caretakers and should act accordingly seems simple to me.

[TrevorW]

Personally I don't agree, I believe corporations viz consumerism has created this situation

If they didn't invent it, make it, market it etc I wouldn't be tempted to buy it creating the need for more manufacturing and we'd still be living like we did back in the 50's and 60's you could buy any Holden you wanted as long as it was black.

Come on how many Iphones, Ipads, digital camera's, telescopes etc do we need, how many TV's etc every year camera makers for one bring out new models as do car manufacturers all in the name of consumerism all which contribute to the production of Co2

I don't mind doing my bit for the environment but we've already seen electricity prices rise in this state by 50% in the last two years, along with annual increases in all other Govt related charges that exceed the CPI

If we continue to consume at the same rate the levels of C02 will not lessen unless we can introduce other economical sources of power

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Personally I don't agree, I believe corporations viz consumerism has created this situation

If they didn't invent it, make it, market it etc I wouldn't be tempted to buy it creating the need for more manufacturing and we'd still be living like we did back in the 50's and 60's you could buy any Holden you wanted as long as it was black.

Come on how many Iphones, Ipads, digital camera's, telescopes etc do we need, how many TV's etc every year camera makers for one bring out new models as do car manufacturers all in the name of consumerism all which contribute to the production of Co2

I don't mind doing my bit for the environment but we've already seen electricity prices rise in this state by 50% in the last two years, along with annual increases in all other Govt related charges that exceed the CPI

If we continue to consume at the same rate the levels of C02 will not lessen unless we can introduce other economical sources of power

I don't know about you but I have free will I decide what I buy no matter the temptation my computer's (and they are top of the line computers from only 1 or 2 years back) all of them are ones I have reclaimed from the recycle center and my scopes as well I have a second hand car also and the only reason I want to get a new car is so I can get a Hybrid Camry.

[Barrykgerdes]

Originally Posted by Barrykgerdes

This thread is getting of the topic and too politically biased. I assumed it was to discuss alternate forms of energy for future use.

Barry

Sorry the post was a little ambiguous in that the wrong conotation for biased has been taken. I just meant the thread was discussing political views in lieu of engineering views.

Barry

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by marki

Yeah you guys do that and I will be the Governor General. You are both fired

Mark

Hey Mark, if you look as good as she does at her age woohoo don't just fire me

Ok ok back on topic.....

[Deeno]

Lucky these extreme left wingers are a minority...eh comrad

[TrevorW]

energy ideas

http://www.giuliobarbieri.it/eng/Sch...FYULHAodnDhfxw

[marki]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Hey Mark, if you look as good as she does at her age woohoo don't just fire me

Ah Mike thats taking role play too far . Best you just keep lusting after Julia.

PS you are still fired.

Mark

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by Deeno

Lucky these extreme left wingers are a minority...eh comrad

Comrade, there hasn't been any extreme left wing views here .... yet . It's not as if Mike is about to advocate nationalisation of the banks, mines, all heavy industry, telecommunications and power and place the lot under the control of councils of workers and consumers. What passes here for the whole political spectrum is actually just nuances of the same position.

Everyone chant:

The astronomers, united, will never be defeated!!

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Hmm Hon Mike Sidonio Labor MP for IIS Left ..has a ring to it

Hey, and you could be Hon Marc Aragnou Liberal MP for IIS Right .

Aaaand then, we can tell people that when we say things sort of off the cuff it may not be the full or gospel truth but if it is fully scripted first then everyone can trust what we have said...(even if we do change our minds afterwards) spoken by Hon Tony Abbott MP (Circa 2009)

You in?

S||t yeah! First order of the day: turn all those bloody lights off after 9:00pm. That's pretty much the only thing we would agree on. and we reduce our carbon footprint instantly.

[TrevorW]

by over 300,000 tonnes or $6 million dollars worth

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by Deeno

Lucky these extreme left wingers are a minority...eh comrad

Yeh, how funny and they can do what they want in the Senate now for the next several years my stomach hurts oh the pain

[Hagar (Doug)]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

Comrade, there hasn't been any extreme left wing views here .... yet . It's not as if Mike is about to advocate nationalisation of the banks, mines, all heavy industry, telecommunications and power and place the lot under the control of councils of workers and consumers. What passes here for the whole political spectrum is actually just nuances of the same position.

Everyone chant:

The astronomers, united, will never be defeated!!

No just my salary.

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by marki

Best you just keep lusting after Julia.

[Eternal]

Originally Posted by renormalised

What storage technology are you referring to??

Originally Posted by renormalised

I can think of quite a few, but I'll await your answer and then see just how much you really have a clue about this subject.
I took you to task a few posts ago about making comments like you have just done, yet again, without providing any proof of what you have said. No evidence of research into the technology or the cost of implementation. All I have read or seen of your posts is nothing more than babble and nonsense.
The only "FAIL" I see here is one of clarity of thought and logical argument on your part.

Ok, let’s first start with the base load myth:
1) Power generating companies produce electricity based on demand – it is not generated in advance and stored as it is simply too expensive.
2) Because demand changes over time, power utilities meet this demand by forecasting the aggregate power requirements in advance based on previous and predicted trends. This predicted load becomes the minimum load required.
3) This minimum load requirement is the “base load” and is met by their cheapest generation units, which in Australia is more often than not coal.
4) Any additional requirement to this base load is met by additional power generation units when required. These units (often gas or diesel) are usually more expensive generation units but have the distinct advantage that they can be brought online quickly (coal powered generation units take between 6 to 24 hours to bring online and as such are too slow).
What all of the above means is that the concept of “base load” originates from the method that power companies currently use in the planning stages to meet demand; it is not a requirement in itself. The only real requirement for power generation in Australia is that the power being generated must meet demand.
The other part of the base load myth often involves reliability, in particular the notion that renewables cannot provide continuous power because of variability in the weather (sun & wind). But such a position assumes the fact that coal powered generation always work, which it doesn’t.
Coal powered generation units can and do fail. To make up for this coal powered generation companies invest significant money in additional generating capacity called a reserve margin, which consists of additional generation units they can quickly bring online as well as interconnects to other power stations.
What is often overlooked is that this same principle can also be applied to renewable power generation. Whilst the sun or wind may not be shining\blowing in one area, it definitely will be in another. And as for what happens to solar when the sun goes down, solar with thermal storage such as molten salts, is a proven economically competitive technology as the following links explain:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-to-use-solar-energy-at-night
http://www.solarthermalmagazine.com/2010/06/28/the-future-of-molten-salt-solar-energy-thermal-storage-and-concentrated-solar-power-worldwide-2010-2016/
Now as for the idea of using Thorium reactors to replace coal powered generators it needs to be understood that Thorium reactors still produce nuclear waste and still require Uranium. The fact of the matter is that Thorium reactors are nothing more than nuclear power lite. They make sense for countries that already have significant investment in nuclear power, such as China & India, as a means of making them safer but not for countries which do not, such as Australia.
However in the grand scheme of things we need to realise that no matter what solution is chosen, it will be 15 to 20 years minimum and billions and billions of dollars of investment before we see a result and whatever is chosen will be in place for at least the next 100 years.
If we choose non-renewable resources as our path then haven’t we just repeated the mistakes of the past? More importantly though is that if non-renewables are chosen there is no way we can predict the price or availability of these commodities in 50 to 100 years from now.
Indeed of all of the energy resources we can utilise, the only thing that can be guaranteed in the future is that the sun will still be shining and the wind will still be blowing, and both of these will still be free.

[Hagar (Doug)]

Originally Posted by Eternal

Ok, let’s first start with the base load myth:
1) Power generating companies produce electricity based on demand – it is not generated in advance and stored as it is simply too expensive.

A very simplistic view of the electricity market system leaving out an awful lot of the protocols and system used to provide electricity to our homes.
Firstly the market system runs on a 5 minute update process where required generation is recalculated every 5 minutes of the day.

You also forgot to mention the requirement of the system to have reserve in the form of spinning reserve whether that be coal or gas or hydro but almost never diesel or oil based due to the cost. As a general rule there is at least the equivelant of the largest generator in the generation area to maintain system security in the event of some other plant failure.

Summing up the rest, your opening statement ( it is not generated in advance and stored as it is simply too expensive.) says it all .
A very true statement and holds true for the storage medium for solar that you mention here. At $50 per KWHr (taken directly from the document you linked to) this equates to $50000.00 per MWHr. Interestingly the maximum allowable cost a generator can bid electricity into the grid at is $12500 per MWHr.

There are also problems with the replacement of the salt medium which degenerates with the intence heat and needs to be replaced annually. What by products do we end up with as a result of this process, does it need to be stored or can it be used to fertalise the world. All these systems are just the same as Thorium reactors, still very experimental, still a lot of unknowns.

I can assure you wind is still a major problem in our electricity sytem with it's uneven load characteristics and to say that the wind is always blowing somewhere is just a throw away comment meaning absolutely nothing in the scheme of things.

Base load is the actual load that is required to hold the grid together under stable loading conditions providing some system protection during fault conditions. If this load base isn't maintained the system would almost certainly shut down during any major fault condition. This is a frightening thought which could take as much as a week or more to restart the sytem and get it back to a stable condition.

I would be out of a job if it was all this simple.

More information can be found at http://www.aemo.com.au or the office of the AER. The entire system is extremely regulated but generation is largely produced by private companies who need to make a profit and not Government who can run at non profit pricing.