Base load power

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

I've read that the EU is working on fossil fuel zero emmission power plants using cabon capture techniques

I think this might be another clayton plan to keep people happy. Couple of years ago the greenies kicked a stink in France because of the planning of a super phoenix plant in Britanny I think. The EDF (power company) spent billions building them a wind farm next door, that they knew wouldn't work btw, but it looked really pretty on the glossy brochure. That kept them quiet, they built the plant and offset the wind farm cost by selling electricity in only a couple of years. So now they have a lot of white propellers that do f'all. But hey it looks good.

[Jeffkop (Jeff)]

Not exactly on topic but never the less its certainly part of the discussion. Treat this as apolitical

I am amazed why no-one is asking the question.
Why the insatiable desire to bring this tax in right now ???
Why make things more expensive in these financially troubled times ???

I think if you can find the answers to these questions then I think you will be a lot closer to un earthing the real objectives here.

I mean even if your pro the carbon tax, surely its introduction should be delayed until the country is in a far better place financially to accept its burdens, especially in light of the fact that presently our contibution to the carbon problem is so small. (Thats assuming that carbon is even the problem.)

I dont think your going to see any changes to how the base load power is generated simply because the place needs the utility and there isnt any other way of delivering it in the required quantities. We are all just going to be paying more for the priveledge with little to no change in what ever is going into the atmosphere.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by multiweb

There's a bit of controversy and mixed feelings in the general public and media back home about ITER...

Humm that's very interesting, as I recall they were hoping for first plasma in 2012....so clearly cost over-runs and technical problems are hurting support and progress there. (I seem to recall Sydney built an Opera-house that had similar issues... )

That said, the project is very ambitious and assuming they get it to run...clean power using the same process that drives our Sun... all I can say is: Vive la France!

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Humm that's very interesting, as I recall they were hoping for first plasma in 2012....so clearly cost over-runs and technical problems are hurting support and progress there. (I seem to recall Sydney built an Opera-house that had similar issues... )

That said, the project is very ambitious and assuming they get it to run...clean power using the same process that drives our Sun... all I can say is: Vive la France!

Oh I have no doubt they will go the whole nine yard. There has been already far too much financial backing into this project from many countries including the US and Germany as well. There is only one way to go and it's forward. I worked on the site on and off from 90 to 94 as I was living in Pertuis not far from Cadarache when they started and it's quite an impressive place. It's like a Disney World. Completely autonome. A mini-city in the middle of nowhere. Supermarkets, Schools, Hospitals, shopping centres, a whole infrastructure for all the scientists and their families. There are 100s of top scientists living there. I wonder if they do integrals and derivation in class for the kids starting in kindy down there

PS: You can see the hole planned infrastructure here. It's going to be the scale of a small town. They started doing ground surveys and dilatometers tests in the early 90s. I was working for a building/mining company at the time and they were kept very busy. This project created a lot of jobs in SE of France, which is one of the worst areas affected by unemployment. So it is a major drive for the region of Marseilles.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Jeffkop

We are all just going to be paying more for the priveledge with little to no change in what ever is going into the atmosphere.

Well even Ross Garnaut admits any changes made by Australia will have little to no impact on global emissions....

I guess we'd need to start exporting coal to Mars (Venus has more than enough CO2 )

The CO2 tax to me is rather like fining someone for cigarette smoke while igoring the fact a bushfire is fast approaching...and then giving your cigarette to someone who can't afford to smoke!

[Paul Haese]

Marc, if fusion does get off the ground it will revolutionize everything. Space travel will be possible within the solar system. Cars could even run smaller systems. The trouble as I understand it at present is containment. The actions of fusion degrade the vessel walls really rapidly and this leads to high maintenance issues. Another minor issue though at present is the longest reaction sustained is a fraction of a second, although I thought I had read or heard they got it to 3 seconds.

With such an abundant supply of hydrogen on our planet, that could keep us going for a very long time. Hopefully this site will get it all going. Will the technology transfer be equatable though?

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by Paul Haese

Marc, if fusion does get off the ground it will revolutionize everything. Space travel will be possible within the solar system. Cars could even run smaller systems. The trouble as I understand it at present is containment. The actions of fusion degrade the vessel walls really rapidly and this leads to high maintenance issues. Another minor issue though at present is the longest reaction sustained is a fraction of a second, although I thought I had read or heard they got it to 3 seconds.

With such an abundant supply of hydrogen on our planet, that could keep us going for a very long time. Hopefully this site will get it all going. Will the technology transfer be equatable though?

When they started the project in the early 90s thay said they would find it within 50 years. That's their goal. The technology will be made available to everybody of course. There are so many countries involved and supporting the project financially. It is a large team effort. It does work in theory but they need to apply the science to the engineering and pratical part I guess. All this stuff is way over my head but as you said this will be a milestone in human history. A game changer.

[TrevorW]

Nothing proactive about imposing a tax ,they were being proactive by introducing solar system subsidy but didn't carry it far enough or subsidise really viable systems.

Proactive to me is funding viable alternative energy producing systems, reducing logging (OGF), looking at improved filtering on towers, reducing power wastage like street lights, demanding more energy efficient construction, reducing urban sprall, things that may be slightly unpopular but nevertheless productive.

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Many of you will have already read the report I am sure, so sorry all you anti carbon tax guys but the vast majority of economists think the currenly proposed Carbon Pricing system is sound economics and in fact good policy ...even more say the opositions direct action system is inferior and will not work ...so, if we change governments we would have a much worse system ...yet it is clear people would vote for them now because of the fears and inacuracies being pushed on them by those with little clue or who are missing the point. I think the whole confussion is a good example of how missguided adversarial politically biased opinions can make such a mess of what should be a very simple transition to good policy, that nobody will really notice as it is introduced but will be the start of a fantastic, over due, change in approach.

Bring on the Carbon Price

Was that too obvious?

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Nothing proactive about imposing a tax ,they were being proactive by introducing solar system subsidy but didn't carry it far enough or subsidise really viable systems.

Proactive to me is funding viable alternative energy producing systems, reducing logging (OGF), looking at improved filtering on towers, reducing power wastage like street lights, demanding more energy efficient construction, reducing urban sprall, things that may be slightly unpopular but nevertheless productive.

But it is not just a tax dig a little deeper instead of getting stuck on the Tax there is a lot more to what they are doing than the tax that is only one part of the whole package. They are providing a 10billion dollar fund for funding renewable energy projects as one example.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

...so, if we change governments we would have a much worse system ...

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by supernova1965

But it is not just a tax dig a little deeper instead of getting stuck on the Tax there is a lot more to what they are doing than the tax that is only one part of the whole package. They are providing a 10billion dollar fund for funding renewable energy projects as one example.

Let's just see what comes out of all of this. I've seen plenty of big projects the government has touted in the past, and various agencies setup to run them...and what's happened. Nothing. What money was given was ultimately channeled via various sources straight back into government coffers with little or nothing to show for it. Let's just see where this tax money is going to go in reality. All the glitzy looking sites and bluster is just for show, to con you into thinking everything is going to be hunky dory and that they're really going to do something. Come back in 10-20 years and lets see what's come of things.

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

I know... it is a little laughable...I just don't get some of you guys ..I still love you all .... buuut just don't get how you decide on some things at times (I am sure the feeling is mutual )

All good though

Mike

[TrevorW]

Heads up

In the last few days, the airwaves have been drenched in spin about the proposed price on carbon pollution. Are you looking to get the real story straight from the source? Do you have questions you'd like to ask the government?

Then join us tonight online for a special live forum with the Prime Minister, along with leading climate climate scientists and clean energy experts.

The forum runs tonight,Thursday July 14th: 5:45 - 7:15 PM AEST. And it's all happening live online at:

http://www.getup.org.au/climateforum

If you're short on time, or only interested in viewing part of the program, see the below line-up so you can tune-in at the right time:

5:40pm-6:00pm - Professor Wil Steffen, leading climate scientist
6:00pm-6:30pm - Prime Minister Julia Gillard and GetUp National Director, Simon Sheikh
6:35pm-6:50pm - Ben McNeil, renewable energy expert

Throughout the forum, we'll be taking questions for the PM and the other panelists live from Twitter. Tweet with the hashtag #climateforum11 to ask your question and join the conversation.

http://www.getup.org.au/climateforum

If you can join us tonight, you'll hear directly from the Prime Minister, leading climate scientist Will Steffen and renewable energy expert Ben McNeil about what the carbon polution price will really mean for us. You'll also hear from some amazing young Australians about the most important issue of their generation.

[Paul Haese]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

I know... it is a little laughable...I just don't get some of you guys ..I still love you all .... buuut just don't get how you decide on some things at times (I am sure the feeling is mutual )

All good though

Mike

Hmmm indeed Mike.

Let's just look at this for a moment or two.

If the tax is to be effective, I would have thought and remembering from economics 1A, that the funds should be channeled into a scheme that would effectively reduce carbon output. Something like putting solar panels on every house in the next 5-10 years. Where people no longer pay an electricity bill (or at least heavily reduced) and the carbon output of the large polluting sources is significantly reduced. It is not base load but a huge output so much so that overall impact is great. Nope, what is proposed it to set up 6 different agencies, employ more people who use more power, paper and create a beaucratic sponge where all the money is sucked up and only 10% of the tax goes into renewable sources. Where the middle class will again pay the penalty for having a fair income. I seriously doubt that carbon emissions can be affected when nothing concrete is done to reduce them by the government who institutes the tax. I am yet to hear anything coherent come out of the Prime Ministers mouth about how things are going to be better for the environoment. No examples of how the tax will be paying for green energy, just condescending platitudes that assumes we all know nothing at all. The end user pays for the tax and the polluters pass on the cost to them to us. Paper shuffling, power wastage more talk and no action.

It's not the idea I object to; it is their usual implementation of policy that bothers me.

We loves you too Mike, we just don't think we all should vote labor.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Are you looking to get the real story straight from the source? .....

OMG.

I clicked on the "2 minute video" and got more spin that full right rudder just wouldn't fix...

To explain...the video stated a "new climate change authority (full of experts) " will make decisions...

"Just like the Reserve Bank makes decisions in the national interest, rather than political insterest...."

As an importer, I can assure you the Reserve Bank's key role is to ensure a stable $A, at which they are woefully inept.

Our Peso has been allowed to vary around 10% in less than one week, and at present is allowed to yo-yo about 2% a day!

These so-called "experts" suck at keeping our currency stable.

To be blunt, I'd have zero faith in more rooms full of bureaucrats advising on climate change policy.

[TrevorW]

Not my words Peter, just an email I got from GetUp

I for one will state categorily even having voted Labour in the past (but not the RH) as I don't trust her moreso than most pollies

that I'm against the Carbon Tax (really bad thing the Govt did saying this is a tax)

and I personally believe it will do little towards solving the problem but just piss a lot of people off

I'm a single income married man and all I've had from both Govt's over the last decade is cost increases year after year at a higher % rate than my salary can compensate for them

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by Paul Haese

We loves you too Mike, we just don't think we all should vote labor.

Man, you make me laugh (a good kind of laugh) as I said all's good

Mike

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Not my words Peter, just an email I got from GetUp...

No worries Trev

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

I know... it is a little laughable...I just don't get some of you guys ..I still love you all .... buuut just don't get how you decide on some things at times (I am sure the feeling is mutual )

All good though

Mike

Likewise. From my point of view you're living in another dimension.