Base load power

[Kal (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Looking at the posts thus far, seems there is no viable base load projects being done. "renewables" taking on around half of the national grid sounds like green fairy dust to me.

Thermal solar could be quite attractive, but again work would need to be starting now. It isn't. Begging the question, how will a 24/7 base load renewable power grid operate within a decade when there are so few options based on mature technologies and no major works being started for semi green alternatives? (eg gas )

I really don't understand what you are trying to say here? It's almost as if you think that we should build something like the three gorges dam which will provide all of our country with enough power in a big project. Reality isn't like that, we have dozens of smaller power generating facilities operating in this country covering almost every sector except nuclear.

There are also many major works being started, with more than 20 projects commited at the moment and over 100 planned, and anyone who does 2 minutes of research will know this.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

NSW has just upped the peak kw hour tarrif to around $0.43 .... I suspect we haven't seen anything yet...as that is cheap compared to current renewables.

The projections for combined Gas/Electricity bills for a 4 person household were $1.5k per year last financial year. I'm not a big power user but my yearly bill is more like $3k now and I'm not using more. I've actually cut down a lot if anything. Talking to a few mates in similar situation their bill is in the same ball park. So I really don't believe any of the numbers they're going to throw at us. Realistically it's going to double up if not more.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Kal

I really don't understand what you are trying to say here? It's almost as if you think that we should build something like the three gorges dam which will provide all of our country with enough power in a big project. Reality isn't like that, we have dozens of smaller power generating facilities operating in this country covering almost every sector except nuclear.

There are also many major works being started, with more than 20 projects commited at the moment and over 100 planned, and anyone who does 2 minutes of research will know this.

I must be missing your point as well, the vast bulk of the above generation is non-renewable...or non base load (eg wind..no wind=no power )

Viable non-CO2 emitting power technologies are simply not there.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by multiweb

The projections for combined Gas/Electricity bills for a 4 person household were $1.5k per year last financial year. I'm not a big power user but my yearly bill is more like $3k now and I'm not using more. I've actually cut down a lot if anything. Talking to a few mates in similar situation their bill is in the same ball park. So I really don't believe any of the numbers they're going to throw at us. Realistically it's going to double up if not more.

Agreed! We have low energy everything in our home, yet even with a 2.2Kw PV solar system easing the cost, I still pay $4k a year ( ok we have ducted air ).... Yet increases of 40% or more are being predicted

[Bassnut (Fred)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

I must be missing your point as well, the vast bulk of the above generation is non-renewable...or non base load (eg wind..no wind=no power )

Viable non-CO2 emitting power technologies are simply not there.

Yes, despite a nation wide wind power grid in the UK (to hopefully average a good output) a few days before xmas one year, 2008 or 9 I think, output dropped to less than 1% of capacity. A joke. It buryed predicated wind patterns over large areas in one foul swoop.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Bassnut

Yes, despite a nation wide wind power grid in the UK (to hopefully average a good output) a few days before xmas one year, 2008 or 9 I think, output dropped to less than 1% of capacity. A joke. It buryed predicated wind patterns over large areas in one foul swoop.

Interesting! Sadly Oz politicians sniffed at thermal solar some years back, and predictably lost the technology to China. A UNSW team did the ground work and for about $ 9 billion could have built a base load system that would have covered the entire eastern seaboards electricity load.....

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Interesting! Sadly Oz politicians sniffed at thermal solar some years back, and predictably lost the technology to China. A UNSW team did the ground work and for about $ 9 billion could have built a base load system that would have covered the entire eastern seaboards electricity load.....

That's par for the course in this country, and not just for anything to do with energy production. The pollies are as nearsighted as you can get. There's also quite a few in industry that are exactly the same. Look at the Sarich Orbital Engine. He had to go to the US to produce it because no one out here would back his ideas up. Most of the solar technology the world uses was originally developed here, but ended up out of our hands because no one would lift a finger (or hardly a finger) to get it into production and fund further research. Then you have the Helicon Double Layer Thruster....conceived of and developed at ANU. A revolutionary new type of ion propulsion system for spacecraft. They had to goto the ESA to get funding to even get it off the ground!!!!. Most of the politicians and such out here couldn't even spell the first word in the name, let alone understand what it was about. Most probably have never heard of it.

Nope, all we are is a huge open cut pit so far as the pollies are concerned. Mining, agriculture and tourism. A hole, a few sheep and a couple of waiters is what we've been reduced to. What's left are process workers.

[blindman]

Originally Posted by multiweb

A couple of Nuclear plants would be the greenest and the best long term solution.

Yeah, for those who wants it, we have soulution - mini nuclear plant at your home :-)

[blindman]

Originally Posted by renormalised

That's par for the course in this country, and not just for anything to do with energy production. The pollies are as nearsighted as you can get. There's also quite a few in industry that are exactly the same. Look at the Sarich Orbital Engine. He had to go to the US to produce it because no one out here would back his ideas up. Most of the solar technology the world uses was originally developed here, but ended up out of our hands because no one would lift a finger (or hardly a finger) to get it into production and fund further research. Then you have the Helicon Double Layer Thruster....conceived of and developed at ANU. A revolutionary new type of ion propulsion system for spacecraft. They had to goto the ESA to get funding to even get it off the ground!!!!. Most of the politicians and such out here couldn't even spell the first word in the name, let alone understand what it was about. Most probably have never heard of it.

Nope, all we are is a huge open cut pit so far as the pollies are concerned. Mining, agriculture and tourism. A hole, a few sheep and a couple of waiters is what we've been reduced to. What's left are process workers.

At the end ALL is political, and that's what majority cannot understand (pushing their heads into sand), and at the end we will have to escape from "new age colonialism".
Clear skies Neven

[midnight (Darrin)]

Originally Posted by Bassnut

Yes, despite a nation wide wind power grid in the UK (to hopefully average a good output) a few days before xmas one year, 2008 or 9 I think, output dropped to less than 1% of capacity. A joke. It buryed predicated wind patterns over large areas in one foul swoop.

This is why solar and wind and often defined by some grid connection codes as "unpredictable" and therefore difficult to model into grid stability calculations. It therefore can be ruled out as a base load.

As the thread title describes, base load at this point in time with our current pricing and regulations can really only be met by coal. I think there is still a generation yet until an alternative (other than nuclear) is viable in all facets.

Varanus Island in 2008 resulted in 30% loss in WA's gas and what happened, we were told to accelerate our coal fired project to meet demand. 1 accident and businesses and the WA economy suffered due to lack of gas - as I said you can't stockpile it and it is inherently more hazardous as a fuel. Therefore, I rule out gas as a base load for this reason.

I have yet to see one credible long term technically viable solution that is cost effective and safer than coal fired. The carbon tax money should be spend on possible sequestration or liquification technologies (eg oxy injection to recirc exhaust gas to concentrate CO2 - then easy to extract/store/whatever). Move to supercritical technologies to gain more efficiency.

Darrin...

[TrevorW]

Originally Posted by multiweb

I agree. You need the greens. No greens and polluters would run amock. But people have to realise that nuclear is a clean source of energy. It can be dangerous if mismanaged or not looked after but it is by far the least polluting for the environment.

Except of course if an accident happens

[TrevorW]

But didn't someone say that the coal industry wouldn't be affected by the CT

or am I misinterpreting this as

"yeah we will still mine coal and ship it elsewhere so other countries can continue to pollute but we will still be doing our bit for the environment by not having coal fired powered stations"

[Kal (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

I must be missing your point as well, the vast bulk of the above generation is non-renewable...or non base load (eg wind..no wind=no power )

While this may be the case, there are also 4 projects currently underway that involve gas powered electricity as opposed to "no major works being started for semi green alternatives? (eg gas) " which you state.

My point is that you make it sound like we are stagnant with our development, yet this is far from the truth. The truth is we simply don't have nuclear and some people seem to think that this in itself is a major problem, when the reality is, it isn't.

[Kal (Andrew)]

It's funny that while alot of the forum members here seem to think that we should get rid of coal and go nuclear, the opposite is happening in Germany where they have decided to close all 17 of their nuclear power plants by 2017, and replace them with......coal and gas powered plants.

[TrevorW]

Here is a paper written 9 years ago re why brown coal should stay in the ground

http://www.isf.uts.edu.au/publicatio...ybrowncoal.pdf

The La Trobe Valley mines of Yallourn, Hazelwood and Loy Yang extract brown coal from large open-cut mines utilising giant bucket-wheel excavators, or dredgers, which may weigh several thousand tonnes. The coal is loaded onto conveyor belts for delivery to power stations. However, in a recent development the dredgers at Yallourn have been replaced by four large dozers. At Anglesea, Alcoa of Australia Ltd operates an open-cut mine to provide brown coal for its power station. This power station provides most of the electricity for the company's aluminium smelter at Point Henry. The small Maddingley mine near Bacchus Marsh produces a horticultural product. Annual brown coal production is about 68 million tonnes, all from Victoria and with over 98% from the La Trobe Valley. Australia produces about 7% of the world's brown coal and is ranked fifth largest after Germany (21%), Russia (10%), Turkey (9%) and USA (8%).

http://www.australianminesatlas.gov....uparrow_ms.gif Uses

In Victoria, almost all of the brown coal extracted is burnt to heat steam-generating boilers in electrical power stations located near the coal mines.

[KenGee (Kenith Gee)]

Oh dear come on people do a bit of research. Maybe it's something about you coast huggers :-) . So called hot rocks have been used to power towns in outback SA for over 25 years. Overseas they have been doing for even longer on a even bigger scale. Thermal solar plants have been built overseas including by Aussie who couldn't get funding here. We had a trial plant being build in Whyalla it's run into funding problems. The problem we have is that our business can't do anthing without a government handout including building coal and gas power stations, and our goernments are useless.

This greenie would say to all of you the best thing we could do is start building houses that suit our climate rather then the Mcboxes you guy's stack on top of each other in your feed lots..I mean city's. I'll ignore some of the simply Tony /Mockington comments.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by KenGee

Oh dear come on people do a bit of research. Maybe it's something about you coast huggers :-) .

Problem is Ken, the current Hot dry rock generators don't produce anything like what is required (about 30 megawatts, with "proposed" projects, still in the drilling phase, of, maybe, providing another 500 Mw.

Hazelwood (brown coal) provides about 2000Mw...so we are two orders of magnitude short on supply right now, but according to today's Australian Financial Review it is being shut down within 8 years!!

I think I read a figure of $94 billion to re-configure the Oz energy industry....but no detail on just what will replace it...

Closure of two Yallorn plants would wipe out 50% of Victoria's energy production in one fell swoop.

Perhaps, we'll be cooking by candle light and log fires

[Archy (George)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

This is going to be hard to keep apolitical. Amid all the politik speak, I see that no new coal fired power plants are likely to be built in oz, and existing plants (like Latrobe ) will be shut down witin a decade.....begging the question with a rising population, where will the people of Oz get their electricity from?? Hot dry rocks? Gen V thorium nuke? ( yes Virginia, clean safe nuclear power, that you can't make bombs from does exist....it's just that they wanted to take the uranium option in the 1950's to, well, make bombs) Thermal solar? Funny I don't recall reading about any of these base load plants being constructed to date.....but would be interested to know if any progress is being made in these or other areas in Oz.

Coal fired power stations can be converted to gas powered with a considerable reduction in carbon dioxide emissions.
Carbon dioxide emissions might also be sequestered thus enabling coal fired power stations to continue operating.
Thermal solar cannot be base load because the sun's intensity varies throughout the day and year and is zero at night.
Hydro power is available only in a few places and not in times of drought.
Wind power is variable and cannot supply base power.
So it looks like gas powered generation (GPG) but it will be dearer than Coal powered generation.

[Archy (George)]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

.....Perhaps, we'll be cooking by candle light and log fires

and if the Greens have their way, scooping horse manure off the streets as we travel. And shivering at home

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Archy

Thermal solar cannot be base load because the sun's intensity varies throughout the day and year and is zero at night.

I was under the impession that thermal solar could infact be baseload and run 24/7, well, at least the thermal-technology that went to China......... as it worked by super-heating large quantities of saline which had enough thermal inertia to make turbine-steam until the next heating cycle.