Uncertain what a carbon tax is

[Deeno]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

The opposition, their supporters of course. Some people are outraged by Priminister Gillard for saying there would be no Carbon Tax but then appearing to change her mind and moving to impliment a carbon price .. yet so many other sources ARE actually truly lying and missrepresenting and muddying the waters just to help overthrow the government... all the while knowing full well that pricing carbon is something that has to be done, is good policy and they actually agree with it in private - this probably describes at least 50% of opposition members.

This is I guess one of the down sides of our parliamentary system which is often heavily based on running with and driving public opinion no matter how unrobust, missguided or plain ignorant that drive and view may be.


Mike

Appear to change her mind or look into the camera and out and out lie
In a desperate effort to sway public opinion to remain in power?

Good governing or is it simply bowing to the demands of the Greens again in a desperate effort to remain in power? Or are we actualy being taxed for the air we breath?

I worry about our future as we provide the world with our natural recourses while our ability to manufacture anything rapidly dwindles.

It would be nice to believe the powers that be go home worrying about the future of the planet but, that would just be naive.
It's getting harder to believe anything our leaders tell us as it seems they will say anything for a grab at power.

Not looking forward to the next election.......

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Same here mate. You've got your own views. Putting preferences aside. I mean, don't you think overall we're not in control anymore and we have to swallow whatever comes our way? It's like governing by proxy. Not clear at all. Don't you think important decisions that have so many ramifications in the economy and are going to strongly affect so many people for a long time should be laid out clearly, even for a vote?

I mean Howard went to the polls with the GST. Julia went to the polls saying no to the Carbon Tax. If she endorses it, then now the least is that it is clearly explained, consequences and all. That's not asking much.

John Howard said NEVER EVER WILL I BRING IN A GST. Julia Gillard never she didn't want to bring in a carbon price ever. Details can't be layed out until they are ironed out the australian people voted in a government that wont work without extensive negotiation between vastly differing views of the different parties to get a consensus agreement.

Just my 2c worth

[TrevorW]

Guys try and stay away from PM bashing, whether JG said she wasn't then she said she will makes no difference we all know pollies lie through their teeth to get us poor suckers to vote for them and then do exactly the opposite of what they promised at an election.

This is nothing new, come next election they do exactly the same thing.

The issue here is whether we really need a carbon tax and if so why ???

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Guys try and stay away from PM bashing, whether JG said she wasn't then she said she will makes no difference we all know pollies lie through their teeth to get us poor suckers to vote for them and then do exactly the opposite of what they promised at an election.

This is nothing new, come next election they do exactly the same thing.

The issue here is whether we really need a carbon tax and if so why ???

Yep - We're all asking the same thing. Unfortunately there's no reason given (yet).

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Same here mate. You've got your own views. Putting preferences aside. I mean, don't you think overall we're not in control anymore and we have to swallow whatever comes our way? It's like governing by proxy. Not clear at all. Don't you think important decisions that have so many ramifications in the economy and are going to strongly affect so many people for a long time should be laid out clearly, even for a vote?

I mean Howard went to the polls with the GST. Julia went to the polls saying no to the Carbon Tax. If she endorses it, then now the least is that it is clearly explained, consequences and all. That's not asking much.

I have been a supporter of a price on carbon for many years. When the Howard government flagged aputting a price on carbon back in 06/07 I was most supportive of this direction and agreed with it. Indeed I do put preferences aside on this issue, I support a price on carbon and I am not ashamed to say so. Sorry, I know that many dissagree with this approach but for me it is the way and the future. The Labor party went to the 07 election on a very strong climate change/price on carbon platform, it was everything they talked about in the chamber and hammered Howard over it right up to D-Day (or ws that K-Day? ). As a consequence of winning government in 07 (with a massive swing = mandate to many) the ETS was developed and was at least a start but it was knocked back in the Senate twice by the opposition (and Greens). At the 2010 election it was very clear to everyone that Laborl supported a price on carbon regardless of a single sentence by Julia Gillard, so to now say Julia lied is really clutching at straws in my opinion. I can see why some might find it worth focusing on but I suspect most of these people were of the oposing opinion already anyway on this so really it is a mute point.

What can I say?..that's my opinion, sorry.

Mike

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by Deeno

Appear to change her mind or look into the camera and out and out lie
In a desperate effort to sway public opinion to remain in power?

Good governing or is it simply bowing to the demands of the Greens again in a desperate effort to remain in power? Or are we actualy being taxed for the air we breath?

I worry about our future as we provide the world with our natural recourses while our ability to manufacture anything rapidly dwindles.

It would be nice to believe the powers that be go home worrying about the future of the planet but, that would just be naive.
It's getting harder to believe anything our leaders tell us as it seems they will say anything for a grab at power.

Not looking forward to the next election.......

This government is not just saying anything to get reelected it is dropping in the polls like a stone so where does the idea that it is popularist come from I can't see where that comes from.

The greens were put in a position of power by 'US' the australian people so they are representive maybe not of all of us but enough of us did vote for them that means we elected a government that would have to negotiate to get legislation through the parliment that is not bowing to the demands it is negotiation which we could do with a lot more of in my opinion.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

I have been a supporter of a price on carbon for many years. When the Howard government flagged aputting a price on carbon back in 06/07 I was most supportive of this direction and agreed with it. Indeed I do put preferences aside on this issue, I support a price on carbon and I am not ashamed to say so. Sorry, I know that many dissagree with this approach but for me it is the way and the future.

I'm all for a price on Carbon too. There is no doubt it is the only way to go for the future. I think we somewhere all agree with that. We're all on the same boat as I said before and something needs to be done. BUT I want to know how it's going to be implemented and want to know where the money collected is going to go and what they are going to do with it. Just a bit of clarity in the process otherwise it just disappears like the rest of all other tax collections, nobody knows where and nothing gets done.

Taxing imports or exports at the root will work. Taxing the Australian businesses and people regardless will bleed the country and make very little change globally. I think the thread is going in circles now.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Sorry David the comment re over simplifciation was referring to my comment not yours. I was alluding to the fact that although I over simplified the % figures for the sake of arguement, that regardless of our meager attempt to impose restrictions unless the major players also contribute little will be acheived

Ah, I see. OK. Still, I think it's fair to count the EU as a major player. And when it come to progressive policies I'd prefer to see Australia as a leader rather than a follower, even if the worldwide effect is small. [Saying that isn't an endorsement of any Party's policy - just my philosophical stance.]

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

I'm all for a price on Carbon too. There is no doubt it is the only way to go for the future. I think we somewhere all agree with that. We're all on the same boat as I said before and something needs to be done. BUT I want to know how it's going to be implemented and want to know where the money collected is going to go and what they are going to do with it. Just a bit of clarity in the process otherwise it just disappears and nothing gets done.

Taxing imports or exports at the root will work. Taxing the Australian businesses and people regardless will bleed the country and make very little change globally. I think the thread is going in circles now.

It's too late for all that, the advice has been sought, the appropriate souces consulted and the issue debated heavily in Australia for several years now, something needs to be done and done now. The current system that is being worked on is a system in the right direction in my opinion (personally I think it isn't strong enough actually) so I am happy to have it implimented.

The hopeless, clowns, idoits, incompetent etc comments that are gaining traction mean nothing for adressing climate change and while populous, are just childish (fun to say...but childish).

I know first hand how seriously these issues are being taken at goverment level and I commend the Gillard governemnt for forging ahead .

Mike

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

I know first hand how seriously these issues are being taken at goverment level and I commend the Gillard governemnt for forging ahead .

I believe that. Let's hope it does make a change then.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by ving

the human race as a whole produces 2-3% of the total CO2... the rest is produced by nature... well documented.

maybe we should tax mother nature? :p

however that said we need to curb other pollutions created by us.

Taken from the Science website:

http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceno...-emission.html

"A popular myth among climate change skeptics is that volcanic emissions of carbon dioxide dwarf those generated by humans. But a new report in today's issue of Eos reveals precisely the opposite: In a mere 2 to 5 days, smokestacks, tailpipes, and other human sources of CO2 spew a year's worth of volcanic emissions of that greenhouse gas. According to the paper, five recent studies suggest that volcanoes worldwide (such as Alaska's Shishaldin, shown) emit, on average, between 130 million and 440 million metric tons of CO2 each year. But in 2010, anthropogenic emissions of the planet-warming gas were estimated to be a whopping 35 billion metric tons. Individual events—such as Mount Pinatubo, whose major eruption in 1991 lasted about 9 hours—can produce CO 2 at the same rate that humans do, but they do so only for short periods of time. It would take more than 700 Mount Pinatubo-sized eruptions over the course of a year to emit as much carbon dioxide as people do, the study notes."

[Deeno]

Originally Posted by supernova1965

This government is not just saying anything to get reelected it is dropping in the polls like a stone so where does the idea that it is popularist come from I can't see where that comes from.

The greens were put in a position of power by 'US' the australian people so they are representive maybe not of all of us but enough of us did vote for them that means we elected a government that would have to negotiate to get legislation through the parliment that is not bowing to the demands it is negotiation which we could do with a lot more of in my opinion.

We currently have what’s called a minority government where the government has cut deals to stay in power. They are bowing to the demands of independents Rob Oakshot MP, Andrew Wilke MP, Tony Windsor MP and lone Green, Adam Bant MP to maintain the balance of power in the House of Representatives.

I'd like to see some real vision on reducing mans impact on the planet, like announcing a huge solar power plant in the outback. Just for example. Introducing yet another new tax isn't the answer for all our problems. Surely

I don’t sleep well with knowledge that we are dictated and lied to....we aren’t sheep and should demand better.

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by Deeno

I'd like to see some real vision on reducing mans impact on the planet, like announcing a huge solar power plant in the outback. Just for example. Introducing yet another new tax isn't the answer for all our problems.

Unfortunatly the opposition is acting solely for political gain saying no to the above solution and any real vision as a waste of money you can't always blame a government of any political leaning when the opposition just wants to spoil, it is very easy to destroy or sabotage things but building things is a much harder task that unfortuneatly all oppositions this country has had only focuses on their paychecks and getting back into office.


No we are not sheep so we should demand better and we have the chance at every election that is when we get to demand but after that we have to take our medicine it is our collective actions that choose the course of our society people convienently forget that they elect the government regardless of who they vote for we vote for an entire parliment which includes the opposition so if they only care about destroying rather than being constructive people think that if their party didn't get in then they lost but they should expect the party they voted for should act in the interest of the country instead of for their own interests.

[Deeno]

Originally Posted by supernova1965

Unfortunatly the opposition is acting solely for political gain saying no to the above solution and any real vision as a waste of money you can't always blame a government of any political leaning when the opposition just wants to spoil, it is very easy to destroy or sabotage things but building things is a much harder task that unfortuneatly all oppositions this country has had only focuses on their paychecks and getting back into office.


No we are not sheep so we should demand better and we have the chance at every election that is when we get to demand but after that we have to take our medicine it is our collective actions that choose the course of our society people convienently forget that they elect the government regardless of who they vote for we vote for an entire parliment which includes the opposition so if they only care about destroying rather than being constructive people think that if their party didn't get in then they lost but they should expect the party they voted for should act in the interest of the country instead of for their own interests.

Parroting the Prime Ministers spin on opposition lends you no credibility I'm afraid
Well...why DON"T they build something then..They tax and spend without actualy constructing anything.

Doubtfull if they came to the election with their true intentions they would be in power today.
Judging by the polls they will be taking their collective medicine next election no matter what promises they intend to break.....

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by Deeno

Parroting the Prime Ministers spin on opposition lends you no credibility I'm afraid
Well...why DON"T they build something then..They tax and spend without actualy constructing anything.

Doubtfull if they came to the election with their true intentions they would be in power today.
Judging by the polls they will be taking their collective medicine next election no matter what promises they intend to break.....

Hey I was being very Bi-Partisan there infact I didn't vote for either party Labour or Coalition.

If you read what I said I said that both sides are doing the wrong thing in my opinion the government for caving in on helping the planet and the coalition for just saying no to everything regardless if it is a good idea or not and labour did the same when they were the opposition.

I wasn't parroting anyones spin this is what I truely believe I make my own opinions I don't need anyone else's.

And if they are not building it is for the reason I stated that all oppositions since I can remember just want to say no. And as to my credibility I am not the one that attacked anyone and I wont, I respect what you say and read it properly. There is one big project being built but that brings the same negativity as any other policy atm.

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by Deeno

We currently have what’s called a minority government where the government has cut deals to stay in power. They are bowing to the demands of independents Rob Oakshot MP, Andrew Wilke MP, Tony Windsor MP and lone Green, Adam Bant MP to maintain the balance of power in the House of Representatives.

Funny, I actually think this is the best thing that has happened to Australian politics in years! The coalition did exactly the same thing, remember??? Look back at the records and see what Tony was promising the independants..hey, he didn't say no to the independants, they said no to him ...ah how short some memories are .

[marki]

Mike you only want a carbon tax so your orion is worth more Personally I am all for a reduction in the cost of carbon fibre. As for political parties there is nothing to seperate them any more so whether you vote left, right or indifferent it matters very little.


Mark

[TrevorW]

Here is an interesting little chart

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...xide_emissions

how accurate who knows

now as a point isn't carbon monoxide worse for the environment (cars)

[marki]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

now as a point isn't carbon monoxide worse for the environment (cars)

Taken care of by catalytic converters Trevor. CO is only produced in significant quantities when the engine is cold and at idle.

Mark

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by marki

Mike you only want a carbon tax so your orion is worth more Personally I am all for a reduction in the cost of carbon fibre. As for political parties there is nothing to seperate them any more so whether you vote left, right or indifferent it matters very little.


Mark

He he never thought of that

Yes it would have been interesting to see how the carbon price/climate change debate would be panning out now had the independants sided with the coalition, my best guess is that the current situation would likely be largely reversed ...that is the ironic thing really and makes the apparent strong opinions against a Carbon price from so many ardent coalition supporters so comical to me

Mike