Interstellar Travel Challenge

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by bojan

A Macquarie Bank manager would probably die of laughter if you mention this to him as a reason for financing the project

Of course he would, but then again I wouldn't expect the dullard to even understand it, or the motives behind it. All he sees is $$$ and where can I get more from. How banal, narrow minded and limited can his existence be.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Zaps

That budget money has to be spent if you want to see it again next year.

Without some currently unimaginable breakthrough in physics, there is effectively zero prospect of practical interstellar transportation.

Just do the math.

Of course, the money is being spent to acquire more of the same out of the financial purse from next year's budget. That's the way they work.

Who said it's not going to take time and effort. It's no pipe dream, but that doesn't mean they'll solve the problem in 100 years. Just that we don't know, now, what we will know then. So that chance is there.

The maths says whatever we want it to. It depends on who's interpreting it.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Of course he would, but then again I wouldn't expect the dullard to even understand it, or the motives behind it. All he sees is $$$ and where can I get more from. How banal, narrow minded and limited can his existence be.

.. and yet he is made of the same stuff you are … you are both intrinsically linked by evolutionary behaviours, neither of you are aware of.

Like it or not Carl … you are not a mutually exclusive being. You are part of the herd … and so is he.

Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by avandonk

I see it as bit like leaving goats and pigs on far flung islands so next time you return there is plenty to eat apart from coconuts.

We can only make use of molecules that have the same chirality (hand) as ourselves for our nutrition.

So sending bacteria out to seed the galaxy is and was a good idea. Let us hope we are not dinner for a more ancient mob than us. With seven billion of us now they would not go hungry.

Even today there are bacteria that live in solid granite and divide about once a century. They would be good candidates for this journey as would some of the extremophiles.

I can just see my/our very far future decendant on a far flung planet tucking into something that evolved from these bacteria.

Bert

A slightly different tack and take on what I wrote, but essentially the same thing

Let us also hope we don't become dinner to the new kids on the block

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

.. and yet he is made of the same stuff you are … you are both intrinsically linked by evolutionary behaviours, neither of you are aware of.

Like it or not Carl … you are not a mutually exclusive being. You are part of the herd … and so is he.

Cheers

Yes, but it's at what stage of individual evolution that both of us is at that makes all the difference.

Like it or not, Craig, even in a herd of cows, not all the cows have the same spots.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Let us also hope we don't become dinner to the new kids on the block

I'm sure James Cameron will think of something... and the governator term looks like it's coming to a close. He might do a few contract jobs in the near future.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

I'm sure James Cameron will think of something... and the governator term looks like it's coming to a close. He might do a few contract jobs in the near future.

Yep, a clone of Big Arnie in the far distant future saves our butt from the grogans of the planet Trinity Alpha IV ....another film by James Cameron, director of Avatar and Titanic. Coming to theatres Sept 1

[Zaps]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Of course, the money is being spent to acquire more of the same out of the financial purse from next year's budget. That's the way they work.

As explained.

Who said it's not going to take time and effort.

Not me.

It's no pipe dream, but that doesn't mean they'll solve the problem in 100 years. Just that we don't know, now, what we will know then. So that chance is there.

You need to understand the fundamentals of the issue. This is not merely an engineering challenge. Our current understanding of physics makes it clear that this subject is as close to being a pipedream as anything else we know of.

Our current understanding of physics involved has been thoroughly tested and not found wanting.

The maths says whatever we want it to. It depends on who's interpreting it.

You do not understand maths. The numbers are what the numbers must be. Artificially manipulating the numbers in an attempt to get the result you want is not only intellectually dishonest but doomed to failure.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Zaps

You need to understand the fundamentals of the issue. This is not merely an engineering challenge. Our current understanding of physics makes it clear that this subject is as close to being a pipedream as anything else we know of.

Our current understanding of physics involved has been thoroughly tested and not found wanting.

I understand the fundamental issues far better than you know. Our current understanding of physics is just that...current. Who's to say what our understanding will be in 100, 200 or 1000 years. Neither you or I know what our level of understanding of physics (or anything else for that matter) will be in the medium to long term future. The only thing we can know is that it will be different and more advanced (unless something drastic happens to us).

Our current understanding of the physics involved has only been tested to within the theoretical limits of our current understanding. It has hardly been thoroughly tested because we are not smart enough to have thoroughly tested it. Thorough testing will only come with time.

Originally Posted by Zaps

You do not understand maths. The numbers are what the numbers must be. Artificially manipulating the numbers in an attempt to get the result you want is not only intellectually dishonest but doomed to failure.

Exactly, and that is equally applicable in any case, whether it be for or against the possibility of something occurring. It's as I said....you can make the maths say or mean whatever you want. You may come up with the number "#2", but it's what that #2 means in the context of your interpretation that makes all the difference.

The number is neither honest or dishonest.

[Zaps]

Originally Posted by renormalised

I understand the fundamental issues far better than you know.

It doesn't sound that way to me. If you did you would understand that it's not a matter of hoping a lab comes up with something new. It's going to take a wholesale reconstruction of fundamental physics as we know it, and there is not even one single sound reason to suppoe that can or will happen, or even needs to.

Our current understanding of the physics involved has only been tested to within the theoretical limits of our current understanding. It has hardly been thoroughly tested because we are not smart enough to have thoroughly tested it. Thorough testing will only come with time.

This is just plain wrong.

Exactly, and that is equally applicable in any case, whether it be for or against the possibility of something occurring. It's as I said....you can make the maths say or mean whatever you want. You may come up with the number "#2", but it's what that #2 means in the context of your interpretation that makes all the difference.

The number is neither honest or dishonest.

The intent of the person manipulating the numbers can be honest or dishonest. One plus one equals two. If that's not the answer you want, you can't just fiddle with the equation until it doesn't. It will always equal two.

The well-understood and tested math strongly indicates that practical human interstellar travel is so unlikely as to be safely considered impossible. It's not about playing origami with the numbers, or hoping for a eureka moment.

[CraigS]

Hi Zaps;

I agree with where you're coming from.

As mentioned earlier on, I reckon the best 'story' is likely to win this cash!

If, as we all know, this goal cannot be achieved, given the current state of Physics understanding we have, then how can they come up with fair criteria to judge the best entry ?

'Left-over' funding sounds about right .. use it or lose it !!

The winner will have to be best buddies with the Chairman of the Assessment Committee.

Cheers

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

Originally Posted by Zaps

It doesn't sound that way to me. If you did you would understand that it's not a matter of hoping a lab comes up with something new. It's going to take a wholesale reconstruction of fundamental physics as we know it, and there is not even one single sound reason to suppoe that can or will happen, or even needs to.

I would have to agree with Carl on this, we don't know what is going to happen in the near or distant future, we can't assume that Physics, or any other applied science is at it's end. The whole issue of the beginning of the universe is all about trying to understand new physic of creation that could when fully understood allow time travel or interstellar travel, who knows!

I wouldn't want to think that my going to University was not worth it if there was no more to discover.

Discoveries always start with simple questions and the original thread is just that; a simple question that would like some answers and it may take some out of box thinking and discoveries to do this. What to say that when we get out into the interstellar space that we might be able to use what is could be more powerful energies waiting to be tapped. Just the latest discovery from Voyager suggests that Comic radiation is severely filter before getting into our solar system means there could be way more energy out there that could be used to propel craft further and faster and maybe we could use that energy to protect ourselves from that harmful radiation.

Personally a lot of the problems of space travel could be overcome by creating artificial gravity.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by Zaps

It's going to take a wholesale reconstruction of fundamental physics as we know it, and there is not even one single sound reason to suppoe that can or will happen, or even needs to.
…
The well-understood and tested math strongly indicates that practical human interstellar travel is so unlikely as to be safely considered impossible. It's not about playing origami with the numbers, or hoping for a eureka moment.

.. and given that what you say is so, and given that it has taken humans several hundreds (if not thousands) of years to come up with the descriptive language of nature, it would appear that it would take the same amount of time to come up with some alternative.

This idea of tossing it all out the window and changing horses within a century, is pure fantasy.

… Pseudoscience or science fiction …
Cheers

[Zaps]

There have been many attempts at a workaround by science fiction authors. Warping space, etc. Nice fiction, but still fiction.

It's not simply that we haven't found a way to do such things yet; It's that everything we currently know says it isn't possible, and everything we currently know has been tested and confirmed. That's how and why we can say we "know" it.

The stars are too far away. The energy requirements are too great. And the speed of light is what it is, which is an almost certainly insurmountable barrier.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by mswhin63

I would have to agree with Carl on this, we don't know what is going to happen in the near or distant future, we can't assume that Physics, or any other applied science is at it's end.

Right !! .. And you can't assume that that its all invalid, either .. so chuck it out the door !

Originally Posted by mswhin

The whole issue of the beginning of the universe is all about trying to understand new physic of creation that could when fully understood allow time travel or interstellar travel, who knows!

Who says it has to do with the 'New Physics of creation' ??
What is that stuff, anyway ???

Originally Posted by mswhin

Discoveries always start with simple questions and the original thread is just that; a simple question that would like some answers and it may take some out of box thinking and discoveries to do this. What to say that when we get out into the interstellar space that we might be able to use what is could be more powerful energies waiting to be tapped. Just the latest discovery from Voyager suggests that Comic radiation is severely filter before getting into our solar system means there could be way more energy out there that could be used to propel craft further and faster and maybe we could use that energy to protect ourselves from that harmful radiation.

.. Fantasy & wishful thinking !

Originally Posted by mswhin

Personally a lot of the problems of space travel could be overcome by creating artificial gravity.

The tooth fairy might make me a billionaire tonight, also !
Cheers

[CraigS]

Actually if you read carefully, their objective is to nurture breakthrough technologies and innovations which cut across the multi-disciplines of science.

The development of paradigm shifts requires a very deep understanding of the sciences from the grass-roots upwards. Very few have this depth and breadth of knowledge in any one discipline, let alone across the board.

Anyone can think outside the dots .. its not the exclusive domain of the 'intellectually endowed'. But there's a very big difference between a leader in a given field thinking outside the dots, and a novice doing the same. The difference is what they're looking for.

Being able to sustain that mode of operation, over a period of 100 years, requires a paradigm shift in technology development business models, right up front. (Which is why their initial RFI called for exactly this …).

Even though I cynically said … "The winner will have to be best buddies with the Chairman of the Assessment Committee." There may actually be enough 'wiggle' space, or subtle flaws in theoretical assumptions in present day science, to move forward and generate the breakthroughs they're interested in.
Only the experts in those fields are likely to identify flaws (if there are any).

Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Zaps

It doesn't sound that way to me. If you did you would understand that it's not a matter of hoping a lab comes up with something new. It's going to take a wholesale reconstruction of fundamental physics as we know it, and there is not even one single sound reason to suppose that can or will happen, or even needs to.

Did I actually say that it will happen?? No....all I have ever said is that it might happen because we don't know what we might know in 100, 200 or 1000 years. Nothing ever needs to happen...if that's the case then we should still be living in caves. We should've never invented the wheel, learned how to cultivate wild grasses and produce crops from them, build pyramids or anything else we've managed to do in the last 10000 years or so. On any number of occasions throughout history has the world view and knowledge paradigm of a society been changed or turned on its head by new ideas and paradigms that have come out of left field. It happened with Newton and with Einstein and with many others. It can and will happen again, even if you don't like it or want it to. Our present understanding on physics, or anything else for that matter, is not the paragon of understanding and/or knowledge. Nor will it be in the future, for what we might know even then.

Originally Posted by Zaps

This is just plain wrong.

You reply is wrong, and you know it. What did common sense and scientific knowledge before Einstein formulated SR and GR say about gravity, acceleration, force, energy etc. What did they say after the fact. Whenever a new theory or idea comes up and is proven to within reason, i.e within the limits of what is currently known or testable, the old order is either modified to take into account the new knowledge (i.e what happened with Newton's theories) or it falls by the wayside because we now know better (Geocentric vs Heliocentric world views). It will be no different with Einstein's theories or any other we may hold onto at present.

Originally Posted by Zaps

The intent of the person manipulating the numbers can be honest or dishonest. One plus one equals two. If that's not the answer you want, you can't just fiddle with the equation until it doesn't. It will always equal two.

All you have done is repeated what I have said, just worded differently.

Originally Posted by Zaps

The well-understood and tested math strongly indicates that practical human interstellar travel is so unlikely as to be safely considered impossible. It's not about playing origami with the numbers, or hoping for a eureka moment.

You have not negated anything I have written by what you have said there. The well understood and tested maths....according to what we know about the maths and physics at present and only to what limits we can test it at present. If you believe I am playing origami with the "numbers", so to speak, then you can be just as guilty of being narrow minded and not wanting to consider the possibilities...being too comfortable of living inside the box. Neither of us will know for certain what future knowledge will bring about. The only reasonable thing that either of us can be certain of is that both of us will most likely be rather wide of the mark. Eureka moments will occur whether we want them to or not.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Hi Zaps;

I agree with where you're coming from.

As mentioned earlier on, I reckon the best 'story' is likely to win this cash!

If, as we all know, this goal cannot be achieved, given the current state of Physics understanding we have, then how can they come up with fair criteria to judge the best entry ?

'Left-over' funding sounds about right .. use it or lose it !!

The winner will have to be best buddies with the Chairman of the Assessment Committee.

Cheers

It probably will.

They can't, this is being done on pure speculation, but you have to start from somewhere. Don't you??

That's always been the case.

And they probably are (After a few shots of tequila and whisky down at the local)

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Zaps

There have been many attempts at a workaround by science fiction authors. Warping space, etc. Nice fiction, but still fiction.

I agree, it is fiction. But it's where ideas start.

Originally Posted by Zaps

It's not simply that we haven't found a way to do such things yet; It's that everything we currently know says it isn't possible, and everything we currently know has been tested and confirmed. That's how and why we can say we "know" it.

The stars are too far away. The energy requirements are too great. And the speed of light is what it is, which is an almost certainly insurmountable barrier.

They also once said that man would never fly, or leave the bounds of the planet's gravity. It would take too much energy, it's too far, there is an insurmountable barrier blocking our way, the present state of knowledge tells us so therefore we "know". What did Lord Rutherford say about atomic fission, when they discovered the process behind it..." I cannot ever foresee any practical application for this. It will never happen". What was said about traveling into space during the early to middle 1900's, and by very knowledgeable scientists and engineers..."it will never happen". What was said about nuclear weapons before they were finally developed and tested...."either it won't work or it will consume the planet in a conflagration". Plenty of times in the past there has been instance where scientists and the present day thinking decreed inviolate that something was impossible and would never happen. That it wasn't a matter of not finding a way to do it, yet etc etc etc.

Even in your own lifetime as a scientist, you have seen some amazing stuff come up. But your own level of knowledge is limited to what you've been taught and what you believe to be the case through your own experiences as a scientist. It's the same with any scientist. But because you believe the prevailing paradigm is where it's at and is the cutting edge, you then begrudge future generations of scientists from looking outside that paradigm. You have no idea what they'll know, and as I said neither do I. So, regardless of whatever is thought of at present, we cannot know whether anything will occur in the future that will enable us to travel interstellar distances. It may or may not occur, but given time the likelihood of it occurring is the same as it not occurring.

It doesn't matter if everyone today is wrong about what will occur to enable us to travel the stars. One day, someone might be right.

[Zaps]

The justification of hopeful people is generally based upon discrete historical examples of stalled thinking, such as Plate Tectonics, etc. Those were isolated issues of specifics, not the required complete rewriting of a scientific discipline - indeed, much of science itself.

We have a good approximation of the distance to our stellar neighbors. Thanks to Einstein, we understand how much energy is involved in traversing such distances in sensible spans of time. And Einstein also helped us to understand the effect of applying such energies and the associated velocities. Experiment after experiment validates Einstein and the concepts involved.

Some people long to wear a Starfleet uniform and boldly go where no fan has gone before, but they're up against cold hard reality. Alas.