Look after your people!

AstroJunk (Jonathan) · #1 31-03-2011, 03:49 PM

I have just been informed that the insurers for Australian Astro clubs is having to re-calculate the charges due to a claim being made against a club who didn't (allegedly) take sufficient care to ensure the safety of its visitors. One visitor is said to have taken a tumble down stairs in the dark. I am the first to say that people should be responsible for their own actions, but crowds and dark don't mix!

Firstly, take care out there - someone has been badly hurt, and that is not right.

Secondly, NEVER do a public night without insurance. You may be personally liable for thousands of dollars even though you believed you did enough...

and finally, we are all have to pay more from now on!

MrB (Simon) · #2 31-03-2011, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AstroJunk

I am the first to say that people should be responsible for their own actions, but crowds and dark don't mix!

Probably preventable too.
Who knows whether the individual was just clumsy or genuinely couldn't see where to step in the dark, it doesn't matter, damage done... but if the stairwell was well illuminated the incident would never have happened, or , the insurance assessor could have eliminated that as an issue.

With the rediculously low per-metre price of red LED strip lighting these days, there realy is no excuse for not having it hidden under each step illuminating the one below.
Even better would be to run a single strip along the underside of the handrail(if it exists), taking care of two problems in one.

ballaratdragons (Ken) · #3 31-03-2011, 06:22 PM

Yes, we received an email from the Insurer (WHH) informing us that our Astro Association Premiums will be rising and we have to answer a new set of questions to determine by how much.

They also say in the email that the Club responsible for the accident have remedied the situation by installing a Hand Rail and marking every step with a white painted Strip.

Fortunately for our SVAA (and any other club who's policy expires between now and the insurers final decision on Premiums increase) will be 100% covered by the insurer free of charge until the end of May, when they will be releasing the new Premiums.

It's not good that someone has been injured, but I suppose when you consider the thousands of people who attend public Astro events in the dark around Australia each year, only one accident is fairly remarkable.

jenchris (Jennifer) · #4 31-03-2011, 06:32 PM

What's remarkable is the fact the person wanted to look through a telescope and also be in well lit surroundings sufficiently to sue someone because he fell - probably because he didn't take sufficient care to know where he was or failing that to be careful.

If it's dark, you don't go running about - like an RACQ ad - charter boat, what charter boat?

sasup (Stacey) · #5 31-03-2011, 07:09 PM

sorry to hear someone is hurt but please do the math:
stars + Telescope + people - city light = dark!!!!

AstroJunk (Jonathan) · #6 31-03-2011, 11:02 PM

or is it:

Public + dark = Trip + Fall * Sue

if Trip + Fall * Sue = $15,000, work out the value of Public in Dark of differing ammounts.

firstlight (Tony) · #7 02-04-2011, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenchris

What's remarkable is the fact the person wanted to look through a telescope and also be in well lit surroundings sufficiently to sue someone because he fell - probably because he didn't take sufficient care to know where he was or failing that to be careful.

If it's dark, you don't go running about - like an RACQ ad - charter boat, what charter boat?

True, but you have to keep in mind that the genuine public do not have a realistic idea what a viewing night entails, i.e. its dark. For that reason if there are stairs, an embankment, or obstacles on the ground, and we are asking people to participate, we have the responsibility to protect them.

Sure common sense should prevail but it should be on both sides of the coin (and we all know that it ain't that common anyway).

Don't know the details of the incident, so bit hard to run a commentary, other than it brings home the fact that if you decide to do a public viewing night it pays to have the relevant coverage as Jonathan suggests. Someone gets hurt, you're in the gun.

astronut (John) · #8 02-04-2011, 10:01 PM

My concern is that....ONE claim has been made, and that the insurers are crowing about raising premiums A LOT!!
Whilst I agree that all care must be taken to protect visitors to our Public Nights, the insurance companies just wait for an excuse to hike premiums.
Over the last few years Insurance companies have forgotten that they are in the business of..........RISK!!!

AstroJunk (Jonathan) · #9 03-04-2011, 01:02 AM

I think their actuaries have been assuming that a bunch of astronomers can't do anyone any harm, bless them...

Little do they know how easy it is to be hurt by a falling 31mm Nagler!

ballaratdragons (Ken) · #10 03-04-2011, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AstroJunk

Little do they know how easy it is to be hurt by a falling 31mm Nagler!

. . . and tripping over cables, and getting impaled by a Counterweight shaft sticking out, and falling off stepladders, and moving towards the focuser too fast in the dark and getting an EP right in the eye, and . . . . etc

firstlight (Tony) · #11 03-04-2011, 01:37 AM

Ah, I didn't want to infer that insurance companies and lawyers are in any way reasonable or have hearts that would soften for anything less than any excuse to milk us for whatever we've got

.

Amunous (Michael) · #12 03-04-2011, 06:45 PM

Im sorry... but we have created a culture of, get hurt = sue. dont like someone = sue. disagree with someone = sue.

If your signing up for an astronomy event and your going there expecting to be able to walk around in the dark with no torch and NOT fall over something then you really need to be asking yourself if that is the environment you should be in.

Sure accidents happen we all know that. Its very unfortunate that someone was hurt.

But it will get to the point that before every event you will have to sign a disclaimer saying that the event organisers are not liable for anything that happens to you or you will not be allowed to participate. Fair enough im more than happy to sign. If i was running down some stairs in the dark to get to a scope and i slipped and hurt myself its my own dumb fault, there is a responsibility for EVERYONE to take care, you should not be going to events with an idea that you have no responsibility for your actions and that you can do anything and go anywhere an NOTHING will happen and that every facet will be covered, something will always be missed.

Use caution people.

As for the "well illuminated stairwell", yes that is an option, but then you will have people crying because its too bright.

People need to take responsibility for their actions. If you cannot navigate a set of stairs in the dark, its simple dont try and go up or down the stairs.

How bad was the injury anyway was it a stubbed toe? a skinned knee? a broken back? If it was a serious injury and the person will likely never be able to work again i can understand suing. But if you stub your toe and cry foul you might need think it over again.

It could even get to the point where nothing will ever be organised ever again because people just wont want to be sued over an accident.
Then we all miss out.

Once again im sorry someone was hurt, lets hope it doesnt happen again.

kinetic (Steve) · #13 03-04-2011, 07:13 PM

I have been trying to organise a school viewing night for 2 months now and
not once has the subject of insurance been put to me, either by the teacher
involved , or the school management helping to organise it.
Does that mean it falls back on me? Not sure.
It is to be held on their grounds, albeit after hours

As far as the attitude of litigation in society today I think we are all
responsible for that in a way.
It seems to me to be a ' well you can't have it both ways mate' attitude.
Let me give an example.

We once had a holiday up at the Flinders Ranges where the kids both had
a ride on a horse. For both of them it it will be a lifelong memory.
Our girl was just 6 and our boy 8 at the time.
Both sat on the pony unassisted and were led along a trail by the lad
running the show.
When we tried to organise the same type of ride 2 years later we were
told at the homestead they had cancelled the horse riding due to the
insurance premiums.
One kilometre away there was an airfield with several planes doing
public joyflights through the Wilpena Pound.... still operating.
I'd imagine their insurance vs risk vs operating costs were still making
that a viable, safe business proposition but horse riding...no.
Now to my point....I guess we would all hit the roof if something had
happened on the horse ride and our kids were hurt or worse.
My heart broke when I first read about Mike's neice Sarah and her tragic
story.

A lot of the parents, me included, would be at someone's throat should
our precious kids get hurt at any public venue or event.
So, technically, I would have to potentially expect it if I was part of
a viewing night that went wrong, wouldn't I

It is certainly a can of worms.

Steve

DavidTrap (David) · #14 03-04-2011, 07:38 PM

I wouldn't be surprised if the insurers really go to town on the Astronomy Clubs. Where else do we intentionally try to walk around in the dark?. They may have "issues" with the restrictive lighting policies at some events. I wouldn't be surprised if the use of "indoor" electrical gear outside in the dew was used as an "excuse" to avoid paying for an electrocution related claim...

Maybe we can just hope they don't think too hard about this one.

DT

AstroJunk (Jonathan) · #15 03-04-2011, 08:05 PM

There does seem to be some distinction between club members who should know better and the general Public, who don't. That's reasonable of course.

The moral is be covered. Steve, make it quite clear to the school that it is their event and that you are the one invited to assist. Then everyone should be covered by the school. Even so, I would be ensuring that your participation is under the banner of your club to be sure. Why take the risk, the precious one that takes a tumble is bound to be the daughter of a barrister!

Amunous (Michael) · #16 04-04-2011, 07:05 AM

General public?. Honestly how silly do you have to be if you have never been to an astronomy meet and are honestly expecting to turn up have the field lit up by flood lights? Surely you would have to say to yourself "I think it's going to be dark!!"
If you do think that it's probably best to stay at home OR ask some questions! The first time I went to a meet I went and did as much information searching as I could so I could be as best prepared as possible.

You would only have to read Wiruna's light policy (that was included in the information kit when registering) to know if you go there then it's safe to assume it's going to be dark. Therefore, I'm going to need a red torch and take some care. They made it quite clear that there is to be no white lights. How could someone interpret that as anything other than there will only be dim red lights?.

Don't get me wrong I'm sorry that this accident happened but the whole responsibility surely cannot fall on the heads of those who organised the event where the accident happened. People really do need to take responsibility for their actions (if the person really was running down the stairs in the dark) what were the organisers to do have someone there telling them not to run?, hold people's hands while they walk around so they don't fall? wrap everyone in pillows and bubble wrap so they don't get hurt?
we are meant to be adults if you think that nothing is at least partly your fault and its all everybody else's then you need to re-assess. (Particularly if you were running down some stairs in the dark, unless one of the organisers pushed you (im sure the didnt) then surely the actions you took i.e. running have to fall under the catagory of "my responsibilty".)

Once again it's a tragedy.

Amunous (Michael) · #17 04-04-2011, 07:25 AM

This is surely to anger some people I'm going to say it anyway.

Quote:

A lot of the parents, me included, would be at someone's throat should
our precious kids get hurt at any public venue or event.

Now I do understand that kids can be hard to control at the best of times and I'm not saying that it's all out easy.
If you as a parent have taken EVERY POSSIBLE precaution to look after your children and know where they are at all times (in the dark) and something horrible happened by all means go for gold.
BUT..
If your letting your children (young kids) just wander around in the dark and something happened while they were off on the other side of the field, while you're on the other at an eyepiece or back in your tent, then I'm sorry your half to blame if not all to blame (if you had been there you could have possibly prevented it) it's not the organisers fault if your kiddies fall down a hill when your 100 meters away and don't know where your kids are.

While at Wiruna for the SPSP on the weekend a mother walked past our tent asking if we had seen her 3 year old.. I'm sorry what? you let your kids wander around in the dark and he is 3? if that child had been hurt knocked over (didn't even have and led on so we could see him in the dark) or anything else happened she would have been crying foul, yet she was the one that had no idea where her kid was.

How is that the organisers fault?
In that case it is NOT everyone else's responsibility to know where your kids are and if they are safe,

its yours.

DavidTrap (David) · #18 04-04-2011, 09:23 AM

Michael - what you say may well be common sense, but the law might have other ideas.

My concern is that if a "light use policy" is deemed to "compromise safety", they might deny a claim. Whether the insurer might decide this in retrospect is the real worry...

My other hobby is flying model aircraft - I am aware of some of the issues the national association have had arranging insurance, and have seen a lot of policies to reduce risk being implemented over the last 10yrs.

What I'm trying to say is that if it has happened to model aviation, it will happen to astronomy.

DT

iceman (Mike) · #19 04-04-2011, 09:28 AM

I got the same email too. Not looking forward to seeing how much the new premium will be!

Omaroo (Chris Malikoff) · #20 04-04-2011, 10:43 AM

Are they bloody serious? One claim and they want to jack everyone's insurance premiums up? They are surely kidding. Did one single claim against them clean them out or something? As John says - they are in the risk business. We, as clubs, pay them to provide cover for these incidents - as rarely as they happen. If they wish to increase everyones premiums as a result of this claim, then we really aren't paying for insurance, but rather assurance.