Does our survival matter ?
If so, why and to whom ?
It matters to our genes (or DNA).. because that's what genes do - they multiply and survive (after all, they evolved by this very mechanism) , and they are using us in a process
(not willingly of course.. they just do..)
It matters to our genes (or DNA).. because that's what genes do - they multiply and survive (after all, they evolved by this very mechanism) , and they are using us in a process
(not willingly of course.. they just do..)
'Tis why I think the best chance for humans moving elsewhere is simple transport of genes, food and water, to elsewhere (panspermia).
This human space travel business seems so far away (in time) and is fraught with some many problems, why not start the easy way ?
(… and who says we haven't already accidentally done this, already ?)
The body is home to a wide range of bacteria which in the vast majority of cases exist quietly, causing no harm. Sometimes, a bacterium will evolve properties which are potentially deadly to its human host. But evolution comes at a cost and this presents a paradox: why should it harm its host when this could result in the demise of the bacteria themselves?
Good question and a good paradox for evolutionists ..
"The body is home to a wide range of bacteria which in the vast majority of cases exist quietly, causing no harm. Sometimes, a bacterium will evolve properties which are potentially deadly to its human host. But evolution comes at a cost and this presents a paradox: why should it harm its host when this could result in the demise of the bacteria themselves?"
Good question and a good paradox for evolutionists ..
Cheers
If we accept the idea that mutations are random and meaningless/purposeless.. then this is not a paradox at all...
If we accept the idea that mutations are random and meaningless/purposeless.. then this is not a paradox at all...
Yep .. the circumstances which cause these bacteria to become toxic, may well result in this species being on the well-trodden path towards extinction. However, you could also say that this species has been around for a very, very long time, and has clearly demonstrated its survival capabilities.
Therein lies a paradox .. if its been happy living in a symbiotic relationship with hosts for all that long, why does it still posses the ability to kill itself off in this manner ?
Yep .. the circumstances which cause these bacteria to become toxic, may well result in this species being on the well-trodden path towards extinction. However, you could also say that this species has been around for a very, very long time, and has clearly demonstrated its survival capabilities.
Therein lies a paradox .. if its been happy living in a symbiotic relationship with hosts for all that long, why does it still posses the ability to kill itself off in this manner ?
Cheers
Again there is no paradox here.
You can safely assume that a bad mutation took place... and bacteria with this will not survive.
But, if a good mutation takes place - for example, bacteria multiplies a bit more but doesn't kill the host BEFORE it manages to jump to another one- then this strain will survive (read: that DNA will survive).
Yep .. the circumstances which cause these bacteria to become toxic, may well result in this species being on the well-trodden path towards extinction. However, you could also say that this species has been around for a very, very long time, and has clearly demonstrated its survival capabilities.
Therein lies a paradox .. if its been happy living in a symbiotic relationship with hosts for all that long, why does it still posses the ability to kill itself off in this manner ?
Cheers
A good example, that comes to mind, is the ebola virus (okay not a bacteria - but same evolutionary principles apply). Ebola is too virulent to spread - it's not a very successful virus. Its hosts tend to die faster than new hosts are infected. However, some part or parts of its genome will (probably) be doing very well in other (non-ebola) viruses which do better in spreading and increasing the over all populations. The genes that are common are the genes that prosper.
Even better, some of those genes may have gotten merged with the human genome and doing quite well.
Why would Strep pneumoniae start down a path that may kill its host and therefore kill itself? You and I would make a risk assessment and decide that this is a bad thing to do. But bacteria do not have the benefit of foresight. They can only respond to the current stimulus but cannot not know what may happen as a result. The bacteria are not intentionally setting out to kill us, they are simply doing what it takes to survive, even if that may, without them knowing in advance, kill off their host and therefore maybe themselves. Actually, the death of the bacteria is not guaranteed just because the host dies, as long as they have a suitable environment in which to continue.
So Craig, I agree with Bojan that there is no paradox here. Maybe just an unhappy result of a bacterium trying to survive.
Bojan: Are mutations random and meaningless/purposeless? Well, some mutations (many?) are totally random, a simple, accidental error in gene transcription. So we cannot therefore ascribe any foresight of purpose to such a purely random event. Other gene mutations are not so random. At some point in its evolution, Strep pneumoniae developed the genes to allow it to beef up its defences against our immune systems. There is a very small chance that this was a random accident but more likely was a result of it responding to what it was faced with. And clearly this mutation was not purposeless. Not withstanding this, the vast majority of mutations, which I would point out occur in all of us every day, are totally random and many of them are purposeless.
Why would
.....Strep pneumoniae developed the genes to allow it to beef up its defences against our immune systems. There is a very small chance that this was a random accident. And clearly this mutation was not purposeless.
Stuart,
Apart from everything else that you wrote, I disagree with you on the above...
Bacteria can't "developed" genes....
The mechanism of “bacteria response to what it was faced with” is actually this: DNA mutates (randomly and all the time regardless of environment the cause of this are numerous - from instability of DNA multiplication process to ionising radiation), the good (or not harmful enough) changes stay and then they are passed on the next generation. The wrong or bad mutations kill the system (bacteria).
Over time, these "good" or "not bad enough" or just “do nothing” mutations combine into what looks like the "beefing up its defences against our immune systems"… simply because they are passed on to offspring.
My problem here is more your choice of words than actual facts - bacteria doesn't beef up its defences.. it survives because it was just lucky enough that it's predecessors' DNA mutated in such a way that didn't jeopardise the life of it's offspring....
I noticed on many occasions that such kind of approach to public was used to describe the evolution concepts to people.. however I find it misleading (to most of them), because it implies, like here above, some kind of "intentions of genes or bacteria to develop defences".
There was no intention or purpose here, certainly there was no plan.. and the resulting outcome over many generations – despite it may look like from the outside as the gradual "beefing up defences" - is actually a lucky collection/combination of pure accidents.. (do we know how many bacteria died because of bad mutations and the spread of their DNA was blocked? )
Of course, the term "randomness" can be more closely elaborated..
I think it is safe to assume the chances of certain kind of mutations to happen are higher than some others, But I think we can still safely say it is a random process (within some boundaries).
At least, this is how I understand the evolution and it's mechanism.
My problem here is more your choice of words than actual facts - bacteria doesn't beef up its defences.. it survives because it was just lucky enough that it's predecessors' DNA mutated in such a way that didn't jeopardise the life of it's offspring….
Bojan;
I've gotta laugh … chuckle, chuckle … (not at you, or what you've said, mind you) …
You disagree (in a gentlemanly way) with Stuart's wording and then go onto use use words like 'lucky' and 'jeopardise' …
Both of these words imply 'purpose' … ie: the 'purpose' is survival ! What else is survival, if it is not a purpose ?
And herein is my point, Evolutionists (like Dawkins) use words like 'selfishness' all the time, and yet they argue there is no intent behind anything related to Evolution, (I actually agree with you, & others, on this interpretation).
The paradox which people like Dawkins give us, is that there is a 'blind, unthinking, uncaring, process', which somehow has the intent of surviving, and yet they argue there is no conscious intent !
Hilarious !
Therein lies the paradox !! . And its not with Evolution .. its with those who hold Evolution so closely as to become their belief, that they then impose their own fundamental motivations of existence, (ie: survival), upon the very thing which they argue has no such motivation ! A trap of their own making !
Wryly humourous !
I also have more to say on 'randomness' .. for another post, when I get the time.
The paradox which people like Dawkins give us, is that there is a 'blind, unthinking, uncaring, process', which somehow has the intent of surviving, and yet they argue there is no conscious intent !
Well, it may be my English (as you know it is not my first language) ... but I don't see what you see here
I used those words in quotes, and my intention of doing so was to emphasise the very inaccuracy or inappropriateness of their use.
So let me rephrase:
There is no intent in survival of DNA - this is just a statistical outcome from random process.. which LOOKS or may look like intention (or this word is intentionally used by some people).
Well, it may be my English (as you know it is not my first language) ... but I don't see what you see here
I used those words in quotes, and my intention of doing so was to emphasise the very inaccuracy or inappropriateness of their use.
So let me rephrase:
There is no intent in survival of DNA - this is just a statistical outcome from random process.. which LOOKS or may look like intention (or this word is intentionally used by some people).
Yep .. and I agree with you …
My point was about how the Dawkins' of this world use paradoxical language which serves to undermine the whole point .. which is that Evolution has no purpose .. it just happens .. no rhyme or reason (other than those defined by Classical Physics and Chaos/Complexity Theories, and as described by fractal geometry).
I'll have to think about randomness. I don't agree that its purely random, however .. there's more to it than pure randomness.
The only non-random thing that I can understand is that DNA can change in certain direction because of it's inherent chemical properties.
Other changes are impossible or after them DNA is not DNA any more, or the information encoded in it from then on is lethal for the very cell the DNA "lives" in, so it's not passed on any further (again quotes - meaning, DNA doesn't live in a cell.. it is physically there and it processes information as a part of the cell machinery, and that's all.)
The statistical outcome of all this will look like it has certain direction... which may not look like random (as I mentioned earlier, this randomness obviously has certain interval within which the system variables can change).. but it's definitely not intentional.
My feeling is that Dawkins et al sometimes do not do a good service to their ideas. However, I can understand their frustrations.. they are just trying too hard, and most of public simply have nor ability neither training to understand the scientific concepts and principles.
Yep .. and I agree with you … http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/....es/happy19.gif
My point was about how the Dawkins' of this world use paradoxical language which serves to undermine the whole point .. which is that Evolution has no purpose .. it just happens .. no rhyme or reason (other than those defined by Classical Physics and Chaos/Complexity Theories, and as described by fractal geometry).
I'll have to think about randomness. I don't agree that its purely random, however .. there's more to it than pure randomness.
Cheers
I think I'm on board with what Bojan has been advocating - particularly with respect to the "no paradox" idea. I agree with Craig with respect to difficulties of language usage. There isn't any selfishness per se - nor any purpose or design - it just the way things tend to happen after the (physical) laws of nature pan out. When a mutation occurs its usually detrimental - sometimes its beneficial. In the case where its beneficial its because of what benefits this change has rather than what this change was "intended" to do that aids in the propagation of a species. But underlying all this is a bunch of genes - of which some are shared widely (between species) and the tendency is that there is a core bunch that do better than others. It doesn't matter what species survives or is demised - the only significant outcome is that some bunch of genes dominate - regardless of what host they contribute to the definition of.
Two observations I'd like to raise:-
1) Randomness - we can go down a dark road on that one, "God does not play dice" etc. But there are events that we cannot predict and the concept of randomness - with the appropriate mathematics works well (Gaussian and Poisson distributions, for example).
2) Life has a tendency to organise - which is counter to the over-all universe's tendency to transition from order to disorder. If I'm correct - you can always find a way of burning things that were alive.
2) Life has a tendency to organise - which is counter to the over-all universe's tendency to transition from order to disorder. If I'm correct - you can always find a way of burning things that were alive.
Just some thoughts.
Mark C.
Yes... apparently life does not obey the laws of thermodynamics...
But, a simple fact that DNA by it's chemical properties tends to self-replicate makes it subject to Darwinian evolution .. self-organising definitely has beneficial effect on DNA multiplication and spread.. and you have the situation where entropy starts to go lower (of course, that means you have to have energy source... in our case, Sun, or sub-water vents or whatever)
I have seem many computer simulations (based on random changes of some parameters of an object that multiplies. and then subject to natural selection) where the outcome in most cases is increase of complexity.. So here you go.
However, since life is a minuscule player in overall energy budget of the Universe.. here and there there may be exceptions to the rule... just like quantum fluctuation...
No paradoxes at all
The only non-random thing that I can understand is that DNA can change in certain direction because of it's inherent chemical properties.
Other changes are impossible or after them DNA is not DNA any more, or the information encoded in it from then on is lethal for the very cell the DNA "lives" in, so it's not passed on any further (again quotes - meaning, DNA doesn't live in a cell.. it is physically there and it processes information as a part of the cell machinery, and that's all.)
DNA encoding can be altered under certain environmental conditions. This doesn't necessarily compromise the replication and propagation of the DNA.
In some cases though, it may.
Not all influences causing alteration to DNA, necessarily result in non-propagation.
These environmental changes may not be random, also.
Introducing non-randomness in this area results in a non-random process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bojan
The statistical outcome of all this will look like it has certain direction... which may not look like random (as I mentioned earlier, this randomness obviously has certain interval within which the system variables can change).. but it's definitely not intentional.
Not intentional, (unless human researchers haven't deliberately induced the changes).
Quote:
Originally Posted by bojan
My feeling is that Dawkins et al sometimes do not do a good service to their ideas. However, I can understand their frustrations.. they are just trying too hard, and most of public simply have nor ability neither training to understand the scientific concepts and principles.
DNA encoding can be altered under certain environmental conditions.
Yep..
But imagine this situation:
Let's say, the temperature of the environment has gone up.
This change of the environment will cause DNA more prone to mutation (it is not hard to understand why - atoms are moving more violently at higher temperature and it is easier for some of them to move out from where they were or to create other bonds with neighbours).
Now, the resulting mutation, from the DNA information point of view will have nothing to do with the resistance of the cell to higher temperatures - it may have quite the opposite effect... or the effect can change some totally unrelated property (colour of the cell... or it may grow a horn on one side). And if the temperature stays high and if it is lethal to a cell, it will die.
But, just one in thousand mutations may have right effect - increased resilience to higher temperature.. and cell's offspring survive and multiply further in changed environment.
This is the example of RANDOM mutation(s) of the DNA that resulted in adaptation of the species to a new environment.
No paradoxes....
This is the example of RANDOM mutation of the DNA that resulted in adaptation of the species to a new environment.
No paradoxes....
Perhaps so .. but his does not alter the non-random influences and resulting adaptions, which dilute the randomness of the overall process.
I'm open to correction in this aspect .. but don't think there is any purely random process in nature, come to think of it.
When we're talking virtually astronomical numbers, this is an important point.
When we're talking about DNA sequences, we're talking in astronomical quantities, also.
Take a look on SBS Tuesday 5th April (next week), at 8:30pm. There's a documentary on Chaos Theory and Fractals. I'll put a reminder in the Media Forum, shortly.
It is woolly thinking that starts wars. Mutation of DNA is random. The laws governing the chemistry and physics are not.
The latest research has thrown up a new science called Epigenetics. This is where the environment an organism finds itself in switches off and switches on existing genes in your germ cells ie sperm and eggs.. It is all to do with the methylation of genes making them unreadable.
A simple example of starvation of whole populations due to crop failures caused the children and grandchildren to be smaller and less healthy. Meticulous records in scandinavian countries were the first historical human examples of this. It is even more insidious than this as even extreme stress in times of plenty can cause changes.
Have you ever wondered why we have so much depression in Australia a rich country, when it is almost unheard of amongst the teeming millions in third world countries such as Indonesia. Stress hormones will induce these changes so will pollutants.
How to bridge the gap … and distinguish the domain which exists between randomness and deterministic predictability, without provoking a war .. that is the question ..
Better go and watch the tele next week .. SBS 8:30pm.
