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  #81  
Old 17-03-2011, 02:34 PM
DJDD
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I just read this article on the age's website:
http://www.theage.com.au/world/heroi...316-1bxgw.html


should any of these workers die or become seriously ill I hope their families will be well compensated for life...
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  #82  
Old 18-03-2011, 01:10 AM
gary
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Reactor 4 spent fuel rod pool

Today's New York Times highlights the troubles besetting Reactor No. 4.

Gregory Jaczko, the chairman of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission,
has testified to Congress that commission representatives in Tokyo have
confirmed that the Reactor 4 spent rod cooling pool is empty of water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times
He said Tokyo Electric and other officials in Japan had confirmed that, and also emphasized that high radiation fields were going to make it very difficult to continue having people work at the plant.
Whereas some attempt was made yesterday (Thursday) to drop sea water from
the Chinook helicopters onto Reactor 3, the New York Times reports -

Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times
The military also announced that it had postponed plans to drop water on Reactor No. 4 ...
Meanwhile, it is reported workers are attempting to restore power to the crippled
plant.

Story here -
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/18/wo...agewanted=1&hp


In the coming days, should the helicopters stop dropping water but instead switch
to dropping material such as sand or foam, it may be an indication that the spent
fuel rod pool is completely dry and that the rods have heated to around 1800C
and melted through their zirconium cladding and that a "zirconium cladding
fire" is underway. Hopefully this scenario will not arise, but if it should,
dousing the burning rods with water is the incorrect approach as the steam
carries away with it highly irradiated aerosols.

Hopefully Reactor 4's spent rod pool can be filled with water before the rods begin
to melt.

During the Chernobyl event, Soviet Mi-8 helicopter pilots dropped some 16.7 million
kg of sand on the stricken reactor in the first two months.
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  #83  
Old 18-03-2011, 08:13 AM
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I'm thinking the pilots/workers should get a few million dollars deposited into their families accounts before this is over - medals won't do their families much good in a few years.
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  #84  
Old 18-03-2011, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
Bring on fusion ..
Fusion reactors need exotic metals for the plasma containment toroid. The neutron flux is very high and eventually weakens the structure of the toroid metals. These metals become highly radioactive as well by the production of isotopes by the neutrons. Even with a life time of twenty years of the reactor it would be too dangerouss to dismantle. It would have to be entombed and a new one built next door.

The only safe reactor is the one in the sky. I predict it will be used when the psychopathic corporations figure out a way to get ownership by theft.

Bert
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  #85  
Old 18-03-2011, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avandonk View Post
Fusion reactors need exotic metals for the plasma containment toroid. The neutron flux is very high and eventually weakens the structure of the toroid metals. These metals become highly radioactive as well by the production of isotopes by the neutrons. Even with a life time of twenty years of the reactor it would be too dangerouss to dismantle. It would have to be entombed and a new one built next door.
It's why He-3 is a nucleus "of interest". Fusion of He-3 does not produce neutrons but protons which can be contained in an electric or magnetic field.

Regards

Steven
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  #86  
Old 18-03-2011, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjastro View Post
It's why He-3 is a nucleus "of interest". Fusion of He-3 does not produce neutrons but protons which can be contained in an electric or magnetic field.

Regards

Steven

We have reached 'peak' helium. Where do we get He-3?

Bert
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  #87  
Old 18-03-2011, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avandonk View Post
We have reached 'peak' helium. Where do we get He-3?

Bert
Isn't there vast stores of it on the moon?
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  #88  
Old 18-03-2011, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avandonk View Post
We have reached 'peak' helium. Where do we get He-3?

Bert
Lunar rock samples indicate that He-3 is much more abundant on the moon.

It's no coincidence that the re-exploration of the moon is based on commercial interests. The Chinese and Russians have indicated that the objective of further lunar exploration is for the mining of He-3.

Regards

Steven
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  #89  
Old 18-03-2011, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaellxv View Post
Isn't there vast stores of it on the moon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjastro View Post
Lunar rock samples indicate that He-3 is much more abundant on the moon.

It's no coincidence that the re-exploration of the moon is based on commercial interests. The Chinese and Russians have indicated that the objective of further lunar exploration is for the mining of He-3.

Regards

Steven
Tell 'em they are dreamin'!

Bert
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  #90  
Old 18-03-2011, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
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Tell 'em they are dreamin'!

Bert
Why Bert?
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  #91  
Old 18-03-2011, 11:15 AM
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Bert;

Are you asking for someone to answer all the current research issues presently under consideration ?

Solar has its research problems, also … the biggest being that it can't deliver anywhere near the power/performance levels required to meet current day demands !

Try Aneutronic Fusion research !

Cheers

Last edited by CraigS; 18-03-2011 at 11:29 AM. Reason: added 'research'
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  #92  
Old 18-03-2011, 11:24 AM
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With current technology the cost would be far more than the benefits. Even with rail launch technology to get materials back to Earth 'cheaply' the problems of mining and purifying would be horrendous. It is the stuff of science fiction. Robotic miners and plants I doubt it.

We cannot even control 1950's nuclear technology because of cost cutting. The current situation is a grim picture of the realities.

When I was a kid I saw a picture of a very long train with coal and it was the equivalent of one pound of U235. We have not got that correct yet.
ALL current nuclear reactors would not exist without taxpayer or weapons manufacture subsidies!

Bert
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  #93  
Old 18-03-2011, 11:51 AM
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I used to be in charge of three million dollars of the best available equipment in a protein structure xray lab. Not a day went by without human intervention to prevent failures or outright disasters. I rest my case.

Bert
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  #94  
Old 19-03-2011, 08:51 AM
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multiweb (Marc)
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Good to see some light at the end of the tunnel. Kudos to them in handling a task that is just hard to comprehend on such a massive scale.
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  #95  
Old 19-03-2011, 10:13 AM
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I think the best news that I have seen over the last 24 hours is that there is no more major bad news.

The incident has been raised to a level 5 by the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency after after engineers reviewed images showing damage to fuel rods and other structures inside the reactor buildings.

source
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  #96  
Old 19-03-2011, 01:03 PM
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Unit 4's spent rod pool - half reported to be fresh rods

Both the Washington Post and New York Times are reporting that prior to the
disaster, Unit 4's fresh fuel core of 548 rods had been off-loaded into the spent
fuel pool
. There are a total of 1,149 rods in the pool.

Graphic here in Washington Post -
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ivity/?hpid=z3

Of serious concern is that both papers report that the NRC believes there is no
water left in Unit 4's spent rod pool and that, as the Washington Post reports -
"TEPCO reports that part of the pool's reinforced concrete wall has fallen away,
leaving just a thin stainless-steel liner."

Whilst workers were scrambling to restore power to the plants, those following
these events closely will be aware that most of the effort using water cannons
had gone into Unit 3. Attempts to fill the spent water pool on Unit 4
had been "postponed". At least part of the reason for this was concern
over Unit 3's use of MOX fuel - a uranium/plutonium blend.

Left uncooled, the spent fool rods continue to heat under normal fission decay
and their temperature rises. Over time, once the rods reach a temperature
of around 1800C to 2200C the fuel will melt through the zirconium alloy cladding
and a "zirconium cladding fire" can occur. Such an event results in the airborne
release of radiation.

The information that half of Unit 4's spent reactor pool consists of fresh fuel rods
is of serious concern. When rods are fresh, their concentration levels of the
radioactive isotope Iodine-131 is much higher than when they are depleted.
Iodine-131 has a very short half-life of about eight days. But its intense mode of beta
and gamma decay is such that it poses a significant contribution to the total
health risk from a nuclear accident or nuclear bomb explosion.

The thyroid gland, which is in the neck below the larynx, takes up iodine from the
blood stream and uses it to make thyroid hormone. Unfortunately, the gland
is unable to discriminate between stable and radioactive forms of iodine.
For this reason, Potassium iodide tablets are prescribed to be taken up to
two days before potential radiation exposure. Their job is to flood the thyroid with
stable iodine so it will not take up the harmful Iodine-131. It is these tablets that
were being administered to those Japanese who could potentially be exposed to
harmful levels of radiation, such as those that were living in the exclusion zones.

During the Chernobyl event, unfortunately there was no prior warning of the
radiation release.

The events of the past week gave me reason to re-read Pulitzer Prize winning
author Richard Rhodes' account of the Chernobyl event in the opening chapter
of his book on the arms race, "Arsenals of Folly".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Rhodes, "Arsenals of Folly"
During the morning of the Pripyat evacuation, the town council sent high school
girls door-to-door dispensing potassium-iodide tables to the towns-people.
The tablets came from civil-defense supplies.
As Rhodes wrote,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Rhodes
It was well intended but probably too late. Potassium
iodide administered up to two days before exposure to Iodine 131 protects the
thyroid gland almost completely. But potassium iodide taken more than eight
hours after exposure is only marginally effective, especially if normal dietary
iodine intake is adequate - as it was in the Chernobyl region, where goiter (thyroid
enlargement) is still common because low levels of iodine in the soil leave
locally grown food and milk deficient.
By contrast, the Japanese population as a whole has one of the highest iodine
consumption intakes in the world, including sources such as seaweed.

In any case, we are all anxiously hoping that those workers who are desperately
trying to stabilize the situation with the Fukushima plant will succeed. However,
they are by no means out of the woods and industry observers quoted by papers
such as the New York Times suggest that this phase of operations still has a
couple of more weeks to play out.

The fact that Reactor 4's spent fuel pool also has fresh rods in it and that the
pool is said to be dry and the concrete damaged, is of a major concern.

Last edited by gary; 19-03-2011 at 01:14 PM.
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  #97  
Old 19-03-2011, 01:12 PM
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Gary;
I guess the more rods in a pool, the quicker it heats up too ...

Quote:
Attempts to fill the spent water pool on Unit 4
had been "postponed". At least part of the reason for this was concern
over Unit 3's use of MOX fuel - a uranium/plutonium blend.
This suggests resourcing limitations .. surely resourcing shouldn't be a problem in a situation like this ? Everybody seems willing to assist .. so I wonder why they have really chosen to postpone dousing Unit 4 as well ?

I'm finding this one hard to fathom ..
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  #98  
Old 19-03-2011, 01:56 PM
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
Gary;
I guess the more rods in a pool, the quicker it heats up too ...
Hi Craig,

Thanks for the response.

The rods that are fresh will emit more energy per minute than those that have been
"used". Thus adding fresh rods into the pool will heat it more rapidly than adding
the equivalent number of used rods.

Most of the heat comes from natural decay. When the rods are stacked in the pool
they will be sub-critical.

However, if the rods are left without water and reach a temperature where they
melt through their cladding, two bad scenarios can arise. One is a cladding
fire where harmful radiation can be emitted as aerosols. The second is the
risk that the rods, rather than being stacked with separations between each other
as they are now, mechanically collapse toward each other or form a molten
mass on the bottom of the pond that then becomes critical. Massive amounts of
radiation would be emitted. Keep in mind that these rods are outside the primary
containment and that the secondary containment is severely compromised.

Quote:
This suggests resourcing limitations .. surely resourcing shouldn't be a problem in a situation like this ? Everybody seems willing to assist .. so I wonder why they have really chosen to postpone dousing Unit 4 as well ?

I'm finding this one hard to fathom ..
As has been widely reported, there has been much criticism about the amount
of clear information coming out of TEPCO. Whilst working here over the past week,
my work environment allowed me to leave NHK Live TV on in the background
a good deal of the time. Whilst listening to those live broadcasts which include
regular reports from Japanese government agencies and TEPCO and combined
with what I have been reading regularly in sources such as the New York Times, etc.,
I have personally not heard an explanation as to why little had or could be
done at Unit 4 except for the concerns of the MOX fuel in Unit 3 and what
was quoted as "high levels of radiation" at Unit 4.

Thus one can only speculate as to some possibilities. It could be that physically there
were debris leading up to the access point of Unit 4 that was hampering workers
from getting close to it. It could be that the uncovered pool of Unit 4 was resulting
in radiation levels too dangerously high for workers to get to. Or it could be that
they felt Unit 3 was more of concern. I just don't know.

With regards the "resourcing limitation" question you raise, rather than address
it directly myself, I commend to you a commentary piece that appeared in yesterday's
Washington Post which starts with the leading opening -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Washington Post
Time, power, water and people.

That’s all that’s needed to control the deteriorating seaside Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant in Japan.

It sounds so simple, yet each presents challenges.
That story is here -
http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...E7m_story.html

Certainly the revelation that half of Unit 4's spent fuel pool consists of fresh rods
is one of the worse pieces of news to come out of Fukushima in the past week.
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  #99  
Old 19-03-2011, 02:14 PM
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I understand that the Fukushima Daiichi reactors were 40 years old, and are based on a design from the sixties.

I read somewhere (in all of these links) that one of them was due for decommissioning, which might explain why there were fresh rods in the pool. (?)

I understand there are much newer designs which incorporate newer safety features. Mind you, I suspect they'll be changes to those designs, in the light of this mess.

Rgds.
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  #100  
Old 19-03-2011, 02:43 PM
Sylvain (Jon)
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Once again a situation where saving money comes before safety precautions:

- Plant built to resit to up to magnitude 7 quakes in a country that is probably the most exposed to massive quakes - saving money on construction

- Safety diesel engines implemented in a zone subjected to water flooding (considering the risk of tsunamis with the plant being on the coast it's mad) - saving more money on construction

- Tepco did not immediately decided on flooding the reactors with sea water, probably in an attempt to save them. They eventually did but wasted precious time.

So now, thousands of people's lives are at risk.
Great.
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