ITN: CO2 Powers Hartley !

[Jarvamundo (Alex)]

Suppose we try to combine the two and claim the water and CO2 are effected by radiation emitted from the plasma.

This is *not* the hypothesis of the EC.

The hypothesis is that the OH and CO form from interaction with the solar wind.

Absorption spectrum of-course still applies.

[Jarvamundo (Alex)]

Who knows why there might be a ridge of jets ?? I'm not even sure there is, let alone what might have formed it !!! I don't have access to detailed scientific value photos and I doubt whether you do either (??).

There was a NASA press conference, where Dr Sunshine said there was a ridge of jets. She shows a photo of the ridge, and calls em a ridge?

I dunno, i guess i'm trying to find if *any* model inclusive of EC has an explanation for this ridge (EC naturally expects emissions from raise points)?

http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=nq9zna2m
"The jets will focus on an extremely small bright area generally situated on a raised point or edge of the comet surface."
"Contrary to all expectations, the ‘fan-like structures’ (jets) will tend to emanate from sharp-edged topographical highs."
"The “outbursts” from the comet are in the form of ‘cathode jets,’ which are bursty in nature and tend to jump around from one high point or sharp edge to another."

Since from my eyes and ears, i'm convinced there is a ridge, as presented by NASA. Why else would they dedicate a portion of the press conference to the feature?

Yes of course i will wait to see what their conjecture is, it just seems a very interesting surface feature, it could form a testable one.

PS: Can you define "electrical sputtering" ??? What does that mean ??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputtering

In space

Sputtering is one of the forms of space weathering, a process that changes the physical and chemical properties of airless bodies, such as asteroids and our moon. It is also one of the possible ways that Mars has lost most of its atmosphere and that Mercury continually replenishes its tenuous surface-bounded exosphere.

The Electric Comet is just an extension of this process, using the elongated orbits of the rocks and the process of charge equalization as the object moves in differing regions of electrical potential. The sputtering process excavates material and combining with the H+ solar wind forms what we *think* is H20 breaking down... instead it's OH forming. It's a rather simple picture, vastly differing to the prevailing paradigm.

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by Jarvamundo

Strawman steven.

How can you make the conclusion that the gases are emitted from the subsurface, as opposed to the hypothesis that the O-(from comet) and H+ (solar wind) combine to form hydroxl in the near atmosphere?

This would provide for absorption spectra.

That is totally incorrect. The hydroxyl you describe is a hydroxyl radical.
The hydroxyl radical is observed at far infrared at 119 microns. The hydroxyl in the NASA spectrum is at located at 2.7 microns. It is an example of an associated hydroxyl, in this case associated with water.

Regards

Steven

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by Jarvamundo

This is *not* the hypothesis of the EC.

The hypothesis is that the OH and CO form from interaction with the solar wind.

Absorption spectrum of-course still applies.

It wasn't mean't to be an EC hypothesis.

The NASA spectrum completely destroys the EC hypothesis , unless you want to rewrite the science of spectroscopy.

Steven

[CraigS]

Ok Alex;
You seem to have shifted in your theory from post #34:

I will again find the edm papers. It is not a jump to suggest plasma discharges in cylindrical rows, this is exactly the morphology of auroral discharge, and exactly what we find in laboratory experiments, hence another expected feature of electric discharge.
...
The key difference between the comet models here are electro-dominant-emission-processes, vs thermal-jet-driven-processes.

It is very clear.

to post #41:

This is *not* the hypothesis of the EC.
The hypothesis is that the OH and CO form from interaction with the solar wind.
Absorption spectrum of-course still applies.

but .. hey … who's counting ??

I'd treat the verbage in the press conference as anecdotal until they write a paper. In science, its not until you write a paper that you can prune out human illogical errors ! By the way, how's your Pulsar Relaxation Oscillator paper coming along ? Bojan & I are interested in the section on oscillation precision !

Cheers

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by sjastro

To add further to the what you have stated Craig.

Absorption occurs when the energy of the absorbing photons from the Sun, is not large enough to push electrons in the atoms of CO2 or water into higher energy states. Instead the energy impacts on vibration or bending of the molecular bonds.
For example the O-H and C=O bonds in water and CO2 respectively vibrate and have a specific resonance frequency. IR photons of the same frequency can be absorbed as a result.

The mechanism for emission in this circumstance is completely different. The charged particles in the plasma are producing a continuous emission spectrum.

Suppose we try to combine the two and claim the water and CO2 are effected by radiation emitted from the plasma. That doesn't work either. The higher energy photons absorbed will shift the reasonance frequency or destroy the bonds through ionization.

You will not observe the absorption spectrum given by NASA.

Regards

Steven

This absorption spectrum and emission spectrum stuff is very interesting.

I was reading up in Wiki (its Ok 'cause Alex now uses it to explain 'sputtering' ), about infrared spectroscopy.

Just looking at the cool animated models on the wiki page makes me realise just how complex it really is.

There is a relationship between emission and absorption spectra, huh ?

For others reading this post, I find this quote to be very cool:

Emission is a process by which a substance releases energy in the form of electromagnetic radiation. Emission can occur at any frequency at which absorption can occur, and this allows the absorption lines to be determined from an emission spectrum. The emission spectrum will typically have a quite different intensity pattern from the absorption spectrum, though, so the two are not equivalent. The absorption spectrum can be calculated from the emission spectrum using appropriate theoretical models and additional information about the quantum mechanical states of the substance.

Fascinating stuff.

Cheers

[Jarvamundo (Alex)]

he key difference between the comet models here are electro-dominant-emission-processes, vs thermal-jet-driven-processes.

Sorry here i meant, emission of material (sputtering) of the O negative to combine with the H+ of the solar wind.

Sorry if i confused with 'emission' as in spectra, with emission of material. I might use ejection or sputtering hereon.

I'm not sure if the spectro has the resolution to perform on the near-surface hotspots? Steve would you know?

Steven has raised a spectro-question i will need to seek clarification on, i welcome this.
* Steven is it fair to say that 2.7micro is exclusively water associated hydroxyl?

I was reading up in Wiki (its Ok 'cause Alex now uses it to explain 'sputtering'

Just wanted something you felt 'safe' with ... although yes it is often dangerous to use.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by Jarvamundo

Just wanted something you felt 'safe' with although yes it is often dangerous to use.

Cheers

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by Jarvamundo

I'm not sure if the spectro has the resolution to perform on the near-surface hotspots? Steve would you know?

From The HRI site for Deep Impact spacecraft …

The High Resolution Instrument (HRI), designed and built by Ball Aerospace & Technologies Corp., is the main scientific instrument on the flyby spacecraft. Comprised of a telescope with a 30 cm (11.8 inch) aperture, an infrared (IR) spectrometer, and a multi-spectral CCD camera, the HRI CCD camera will image the comet with less than 2 m (6 feet) per pixel scale when the flyby spacecraft is 700 km (420 miles) away. That is similar to resolving a car from across the state of Colorado. At this scale the crater that forms would be about 60 to 100 pixels across, looking something like the simulated image below.

For the Hartley 2 flyby:

The spacecraft came within 435 miles (700 km) while moving at 27,500 miles per hour (44,300 km/h) on November 4, 2010.

Pretty neat. And should be good enough to pick up near surface hotspots.
I'm not sure if we've seen the best hi-res photos or not, yet.

Cheers

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by CraigS

This absorption spectrum and emission spectrum stuff is very interesting.

I was reading up in Wiki (its Ok 'cause Alex now uses it to explain 'sputtering' ), about infrared spectroscopy.

Just looking at the cool animated models on the wiki page makes me realise just how complex it really is.

There is a relationship between emission and absorption spectra, huh ?

The relationship between absorption and emission can be described by the following steps.

(1) Atom or molecule absorbs photons.
(2) Electrons are pushed into higher energy levels. Atom or molecule is in "excited state".
(3) Electrons move back to original energy levels, atom or molecule moves back to unexcited or ground state.
(4) Photons are emitted during return to ground state.

Regards

Steven

[sjastro]

Steven has raised a spectro-question i will need to seek clarification on, i welcome this.
* Steven is it fair to say that 2.7micro is exclusively water associated hydroxyl?

The region 2.7-3.0 microns is the "stretching vibration" for the OH group for a variety of molecules not only water but alcohols, organic acids, phenols etc.

There is another region at 7.0-8.0 microns which is the "bending vibration".

Unfortunately the radical or free OH is way off the scale at 119 microns.

Regards

Steven

[CraigS]

Thanks Steven. Your explanation (for the absorption/emission relationship) makes it (deceptively) simple.

Cheers

Different topic …back to my original quest to fin out why Infrared Spectroscopy of Comets from Earth/Orbital platforms "doesn't work" (Ms Sunshine's words) …
I found a great paper on this (Dated 6th Oct 2010, 10.MB), and it seems the dust emanating from these beasties causes polarisation of light in different parts of the absorption spectra. This seems to cause all sorts of problems for which they've developed corrective measures (theoretically based).

There's a lot more issues/material to read up on in order to understand Jessica's comment. No great surprise (to those of us who accept our lack of knowledge for not understanding things .. )

I'm getting cheeky .. time to go and enjoy the beautiful weather !

Cheers, Rgds & thanks to all for your time/explanations.

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Thanks Steven. Your explanation (for the absorption/emission relationship) makes it (deceptively) simple.

Cheers

Different topic …back to my original quest to fin out why Infrared Spectroscopy of Comets from Earth/Orbital platforms "doesn't work" (Ms Sunshine's words) …
I found a great paper on this (Dated 6th Oct 2010, 10.MB), and it seems the dust emanating from these beasties causes polarisation of light in different parts of the absorption spectra. This seems to cause all sorts of problems for which they've developed corrective measures (theoretically based).

There's a lot more issues/material to read up on in order to understand Jessica's comment. No great surprise (to those of us who accept our lack of knowledge for not understanding things .. )

I'm getting cheeky .. time to go and enjoy the beautiful weather !

Cheers, Rgds & thanks to all for your time/explanations.

Thanks Craig,

I'll have a look at the paper mainly because Victoria is under water.

Regards

Steven

[CraigS]

Its interesting that WISE and Hubble took images in preparation/support for the EPOXI/Deep Impact encounter.

It seems that Hubble is optimised for shorter (almost UV) wavelengths - I'm not sure about WISE.

I don't think either can see around 119 microns.

Cheers

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Its interesting that WISE and Hubble took images in preparation/support for the EPOXI/Deep Impact encounter.

It seems that Hubble is optimised for shorter (almost UV) wavelengths - I'm not sure about WISE.

I don't think either can see around 119 microns.

Cheers

Here is some interesting facts on IR astronomy.

I was intending to take CCD images through IR blocking filters and IR pass filters. Subtract the IR blocked images from the IR pass filters to produce an IR image.

Not so after reading the facts.

http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/c.../faq/obs.shtml

Regards

Steven

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by sjastro

Here is some interesting facts on IR astronomy.

I was intending to take CCD images through IR blocking filters and IR pass filters. Subtract the IR blocked images from the IR pass filters to produce an IR image.

http://coolcosmos.ipac.caltech.edu/c.../faq/obs.shtml

Regards

Steven

Originally Posted by sjastro

Not so after reading the facts.

The link you provided says:

Where can I purchase an infrared telescope for backyard use?

Answer: You can't. Most infrared light from celestial sources is absorbed by the Earth's atmosphere. Only a narrow window of near-infrared radiation (at wavelengths less than about 4 microns) reaches the Earth. Observations at these wavelengths requires that the infrared camera be cooled to hundreds of degrees below zero using a cryogen (such as liquid helium) and requires special solid-state infrared detectors (costing tens of thousands of dollars). Hence, it is impractical to consider a true infrared telescope for personal use.

Oh well .. there goes that idea, eh ?

Also;
Just correcting my previous post about Hubble:
Hubble had Near Infrared Camera and Multi-Object Spectrometer (NICMOS): 0.8 to 2.4 microns
which was superseded by: Wide Field Camera 3 (WFC3):0.8 to 1.7 micron.
Also take a look at the difference between WFC2 and WFC3 !!

I guess Spitzer and WISE, (then eventually the Webb), are the preferred infrared platforms now, huh ?

Cheers

[Jarvamundo (Alex)]

Originally Posted by sjastro

The region 2.7-3.0 microns is the "stretching vibration" for the OH group for a variety of molecules not only water but alcohols, organic acids, phenols etc.

There is another region at 7.0-8.0 microns which is the "bending vibration".

Unfortunately the radical or free OH is way off the scale at 119 microns.

Regards

Steven

Thanks Steven, very helpful explanations. Appreciated.

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Also;
Just correcting my previous post about Hubble:
Hubble had Near Infrared Camera and Multi-Object Spectrometer (NICMOS): 0.8 to 2.4 microns
which was superseded by: Wide Field Camera 3 (WFC3):0.8 to 1.7 micron.
Also take a look at the difference between WFC2 and WFC3 !!

I guess Spitzer and WISE, (then eventually the Webb), are the preferred infrared platforms now, huh ?

Cheers

This is quite interesting. What did Hubble use to detect CO2 on that distant planet 63 light years away?

The Carbonyl group has an absorption peak at 4.3 microns out of range of the listed detectors.

Regards

Steven

[Jarvamundo (Alex)]

Originally Posted by sjastro

This is quite interesting. What did Hubble use to detect CO2 on that distant planet 63 light years away?

The Carbonyl group has an absorption peak at 4.3 microns out of range of the listed detectors.

Regards

Steven

hmmm... spectro Rabbit holes...

Steven can you recommend a good text on spectro? I'm intrigued.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by sjastro

This is quite interesting. What did Hubble use to detect CO2 on that distant planet 63 light years away?

The Carbonyl group has an absorption peak at 4.3 microns out of range of the listed detectors.

Regards

Steven

Hmm;

Mark Swain, a research scientist at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif., used Hubble's near-infrared camera and multi-object spectrometer to study infrared light emitted from the planet.
…
Earlier this year, Hubble found methane in the planet's atmosphere.
…
Swain identified carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. The molecules leave a unique spectral fingerprint on the radiation from the planet that reaches Earth. This is the first time a near-infrared emission spectrum has been obtained for an exoplanet.
..
The eclipses allow an opportunity to subtract the light of the star alone, when the planet is blocked, from that of the star and planet together prior to eclipse. That isolates the emission of the planet and makes possible a chemical analysis of its atmosphere.

NICMOS ! It seems !!

Cheers