The Pioneer Anomaly: Still a Mystery

[CraigS]

Here’s one mystery, (that’s coming up to its twelfth anniversary, now), which I hope they don’t solve … but looks like they probably will. (I love a good mystery) …

“The Pioneer Anomaly” by Slava G. Turyshev · Viktor T. Toth
(Submitted on 20 Jan 2010 (v1), last revised 19 Aug 2010 (this version, v2))
http://arxiv.org/abs/1001.3686

“Radio-metric Doppler tracking data received from the Pioneer 10 and 11 spacecraft from heliocentric distances of 20-70 AU has consistently indicated the presence of a small, anomalous, blue-shifted frequency drift uniformly changing with a rate of ~6 x 10^-9 Hz/s. Ultimately, the drift was interpreted as a constant sunward deceleration of each particular spacecraft at the level of a_P = (8.74 +/- 1.33) x 10^-10 m/s^2.

This apparent violation of the Newton's gravitational inverse-square law has become known as the Pioneer anomaly; the nature of this anomaly remains unexplained.
…
As most of this information was recovered relatively recently, it was not used in the previous studies of the Pioneer anomaly, but it is critical for the new investigation.”

… Scientific language for the spacecraft have slowed down more than can be explained by theory and new data is leading the way.

Seems like every man and his dog has a hypothesis about why this is happening. We could take bets on the outcomes because it seems that this is one mystery, which good scientific research probably will solve, in our lifetimes.

Any comments/bets ?

Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

Scientific language for the spacecraft have slowed down more than can be explained by theory and new data is leading the way.

"The exponent vel-o-city of t he s p a c e c r a f t has g o n e t h r o u g h....."

The batteries are running out

Seriously, I think this will remain a bit of mystery for a little while yet.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Seriously, I think this will remain a bit of mystery for a little while yet.

I have a perfectly logical explanation for it. It got caught in the wake of a vogon ship chasing one of those hyper-velocity runaway star systems because they didn't pay their parking tickets. It actually looks like most of the star systems in the galaxy do pay their for their parking space

[CraigS]

I think they're chasing thermal rebound effects as the most likely explanation.
They're talking it seriously, though .. that report link I posted was a 165 pager!!!

I like the Vogon thingy, though .. Witten's Hamster's book has it at the same odds as cosmic plasma in the solar system ...



Cheers
Man, there'll be payback for that one !!!

[renormalised (Carl)]

Except for us....that's why we're slated for demolition

[renormalised (Carl)]

Oh....it's an electric situation....the reason why the anomaly is there is because it's dragging on the power cord between it and Earth

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

I think they're chasing thermal rebound effects as the most likely explanation.
They're talking it seriously, though .. that report link I posted was a 165 pager!!!

I like the Vogon thingy, though .. Witten's Hamster's book has it at the same odds as cosmic plasma in the solar system ...



Cheers
Man, there'll be payback for that one !!!

Might be "cosmic" plasma. Been eating too many magic mushrooms

Everything's "cosmic"

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Might be "cosmic" plasma. Been eating too many magic mushrooms

or too many "Strange Quark Nuggets" .... er .. nah ... the two don't mix too well !!

[renormalised (Carl)]

The two don't mix

[shane.mcneil]

The little mouse running on the treadmill is getting tired.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by shane.mcneil

The little mouse running on the treadmill is getting tired.

Yep ... a goody .. we'll give that one better odds than the Vogons or Electric Plasmas (10∧7:1) .. lets see... er .. Mouse-on-Treadmill (10∧6:1).


Cheers
PS: This could be a long book !

[astroron (Ron)]

This is not science it is nonsense, or SPAM.
A argument was put forward for a science forum
and this is what we get in return, Rubbish.
Cheers

[renormalised (Carl)]

It's not even spam, Ron.

You need to lighten up a bit.

If science was all dreary seriousness and sticking to the argument all the time, you'd go bonkers. It's half the reason why not so many actually post here. A bit of levity goes to alleviating the situation.

[astroron (Ron)]

If we want comedy we can go to the comedy channel.
This forum was created for science.
You have a go at the other person on this forum for misrepresenting science then you do it yourself.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by astroron

If we want comedy we can go to the comedy channel.
This forum was created for science.
You have a go at the other person on this forum for misrepresenting science then you do it yourself.

I tend to agree with this.

[CraigS]

Ok .. I was hoping to create a little bit of levity, to see if we could turn some onlookers into contributors.

If this thread took off, we could always transfer it to the "General Chat" section.

Apologies if people want this forum to be completely dry - I don't.

At least I now know there's a couple of people willing to contribute in their own way.

Might let it run for a few more posts and then apply to the great Gods in the aether (called 'Moderators') to airlift it ?
I'm happy to 'go with the flow'.

Cheers
PS: In my own defense, it did start out as a serious science post - a 165 page scientific paper. I would rather people comment on the paper than turn me into a bookie !!

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by astroron

If we want comedy we can go to the comedy channel.
This forum was created for science.
You have a go at the other person on this forum for misrepresenting science then you do it yourself.

You still need to lighten up. I have, for one, not misrepresented science and it's quite obvious that you have an all too obvious misconception of the science that is solely due to a lack of knowledge and/or experience in the subject. The fact that I can make light of something that is inherently boring and banal for most people only shows that I have some sensitivity towards their inherent misgivings about science. I can poke fun at it and all the while bring them into taking a look at it. They don't need to understand it, just acknowledge it. If you've ever had to teach science to kids or people who find it tedious and/or boring you'll know exactly where I'm coming from. Understanding will come later, with more experience and study. All I did was take a badly worded statement and make light of it in the context of other posts that have been made here in this forum.

If you want me to get serious about it, I will, but are you going to understand any of the science I will post here???. If you want me to, I'll write reams of maths and quote endless theory but what good is that going to do if you can't follow it and end up not bothering to read on.

If you can't have a sense of humour in and with science, then you might as well give the game up. You'd end up a neurotic mess if you did otherwise.

[astroron (Ron)]

Carl,This is the last word I am going to post on this thread.
Thank you for you input.
Cheers

[Jarvamundo (Alex)]

For those interested, although the paper makes mention of Lorentz forces with regard to planetary fly by, it does not mention the spacecraft it'self acting as a charged body beyond those encounters. In 1999 this was discussed stemming from the works of R.Jeurgens.... with further predictions layed out as below.

http://www.holoscience.com/news/mystery_solved.html

In our electric universe the forces between charged objects is of the same form as Newton's equation, with charge replacing mass. The BIG difference is that the electrical force is about 10^39 times stronger than gravity. So if there is an electric field in space, it will have a measurable effect on a charged spacecraft.

After launch, a spacecraft accepts electrons from the surrounding space plasma until the craft’s voltage is sufficient to repel further electrons. Near Earth it is known that a spacecraft may attain a negative potential of several tens of thousands of volts relative to its surroundings. So, in interplanetary space, the spacecraft becomes a charged object moving in the Sun’s weak electric field. Being negatively charged, it will experience an infinitesimal “tug” toward the positively charged Sun. Of most significance is the fact that the voltage gradient, that is the electric field, throughout interplanetary space remains constant.
In other words, the retarding force on the spacecraft will not diminish with distance from the Sun. This effect distinguishes the electrical model from all others because all known force laws diminish with distance.

http://www.holoscience.com/news/img/...ical_model.jpg

Pioneer 10 is now 7.4 billion miles from Earth, maybe 90 percent of the way to the heliopause. The electrical model of the solar system predicts that additional anomalies will be found if a distant spacecraft encounters the heliopause while still in contact with Earth. For the heliopause is the “cathode drop” region of the Sun’s electrical influence. It is a region of strong radial electric field, which will tend to decelerate the spacecraft more strongly. Almost the full difference between the Sun’s voltage and that of the local arm of the galaxy is present across the heliopause boundary.

I certainly do not wish to engage a skirmish, the material is available for those inclined. Some may wish to take note of predictions the model offers.

I would gladly consider any other meaningful contributions to discussion.

Bojan, i have not forgotten you, will address shortly....

Cheers.
A

[CraigS]

G'Day Alex;
The paper says:
"Electro-magnetic Lorentz forces:

The authors of [394] considered the possibility that the Pioneer spacecraft can hold a charge and be deflected in its trajectory by Lorentz forces. They noted that this was a concern during planetary flybys due to the strength of Jupiter’s and Saturn’s magnetic fields (see Figure 2.1). The magnetic field strength in the outer solar system, ≤ 10−5 Gauss, is five orders of magnitude smaller than the magnetic field strengths measured by the spacecraft at their nearest approaches to Jupiter: 0.185 Gauss for Pioneer 10 and 1.135 Gauss for Pioneer 11. Data from the Pioneer 10 plasma analyzer can be interpreted as placing an upper bound of 0.1μC on the positive charge during its Jupiter encounter [261].

These bounds allow us to estimate the upper limit of the contribution of the electromotive force on the motion of the Pioneer spacecraft in the outer solar system. This was accomplished in [18] using the standard formula for the Lorentz-force, F = qv × B, and found that the greatest force would be on Pioneer 11 during its closest approach to Jupiter, < 20 × 10−10 m/s2. However, once the spacecraft reached the interplanetary medium, this force would decrease to
σLorentz �� 2 × 10−14 m/s2, (5.7), which is negligible."

Seems to me they have taken all that pretty well into account.

Welcome back !! We missed ya.

Cheers
PS:Both Pioneers had plasma analysers and instruments to measure the charge effect and that's where the above empirical data came from. Seems to be a big discrepency with "10^39 times stronger than gravity"....?