Astrophysics and Astronomy

[Astrobserver99 (Rob)]

Astrophysics and astronomy are usually not considered as mainstream science by universities, which is why you do not find many courses in science faculties. Astrophysics can be studied as part of a physics degree in some universities but is still not generally regarded as "real science".

Main Stream Science Courses:

Chemistry
Physics
Earth Science
Mathematics

[CraigS]

I'm with you on that (ie: I agree) but how can they regard it as not "real science" ?

Goodness me, Physics started with Astronomy !
From looking at the questions being asked about Gravity (recent post), I'm reminded of basic High School/1st yr Uni Physics ! (Which is, I might add about the only way I know to answer a question about the nature of two gravitationally bound bodies).

Cosmology might contain a sprinkling of hypothesis and rubbery-ness but it's always been firmly rooted in Physics ! (Can't have one without the other !)

(I suspect your post is going to fire up someone in Townsville ... when he read this one !! )

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Astrobserver99

Astrophysics and astronomy are usually not considered as mainstream science by universities, which is why you do not find many courses in science faculties. Astrophysics can be studied as part of a physics degree in some universities but is still not generally regarded as "real science".

Main Stream Science Courses:

Chemistry
Physics
Earth Science
Mathematics

Where did you hear that nonsense?? Astrophysics and astronomy are "real" sciences and they're taught by most universities. Where they aren't, it's usually a case that they don't want to specialise in those fields or can't get the staff to teach it (because they're working elsewhere).

Don't ever think that Earth Science is a given, either. I know about funding/staff cuts and faculty/department amalgamations all too well.

[bartman (Bart)]

You were right Craig!

Just as a side note.....what are some of the pre-requisites for doing a course in astrophysics? I guess astronomy, maths, physics are a given.
Bartman

[Astrobserver99 (Rob)]

Sorry Carl..if I miffed you off...my argument is this...astrophysics is mostly theoretical and has little if no practical application, In this regard, it can't be regarded as mainstream..perhaps "not real" is a little strong

[renormalised (Carl)]

Well, I get a little annoyed when people say things without thinking through what they're saying. The whole idea that saying astrophysics and astronomy are not "real science" just because they're not taught at some universities is just plain stupidity. That's like saying most of the unis in Oz don't have a particle accelerator, so they can't be teaching nuclear/atomic physics and it's not "real science". It's nonsense.

Regardless of whether it's taught as part of a physics degree or not, it's still science.

Sorry Rob, but you put your foot in it here.


Oh...what about Zoology and Botany?? Where do they fit in on a scale of "real science"??

Sheesh!!!!!

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Astrobserver99

Sorry Carl..if I miffed you off...my argument is this...astrophysics is mostly theoretical and has little if no practical application, In this regard, it can't be regarded as mainstream..perhaps "not real" is a little strong

Science is not about being practical. If you want practical, do engineering. Science is about understanding and discovering the why of it all. Most of your worldly goods and chattels ultimately derive their existence from purely "impractical" science. Think about it.

[bartman (Bart)]

So that answers my question then No Astrophysics courses then....

[bartman (Bart)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

science is not about being practical. If you want practical, do engineering. Science is about understanding and discovering the why of it all. Most of your worldly goods and chattels ultimately derive their existence from purely "impractical" science. Think about it.

+1

[Astrobserver99 (Rob)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Science is not about being practical. If you want practical, do engineering. Science is about understanding and discovering the why of it all. Most of your worldly goods and chattels ultimately derive their existence from purely "impractical" science. Think about it.

I don't entirely agree..Science began to solve simple problems and most science is driven by the need to invent/manufacture something useful or solve some sort of problem...even more applicable today...and most science courses are aimed at this market. Pure theoretical science is mostly just that...

[bartman (Bart)]

Chicken or the Egg?

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Astrobserver99

I don't entirely agree..Science began to solve simple problems and most science is driven by the need to invent/manufacture something useful or solve some sort of problem...even more applicable today...and most science courses are aimed at this market. Pure theoretical science is mostly just that...

That's engineering in it's pure form....science was never about inventing/manufacturing something. Science is about understanding why things work, why things are the way they are etc. It's not about wanting to build a better mousetrap. This obsession with wanting things and having a better mousetrap is a dysfunction of modern society. The reason why most science courses are aimed at the "practical" side of things is solely due to consumerism and the Western style of economic "progress". It has little to do with the acquisition of knowledge and without that acquisition of knowledge, your practical applications become nothing more than curious tinkering. For instance, if you had no idea about how electrons behave at microscopic scales in semiconductors (quantum physics), you'd never be able to build a functioning silicon chip, of any sort. If you didn't know about the spectrum of EMR, how would've they discovered X-rays??. Of what real, practical use was knowing about different wavelengths/frequencies of light...except to say light was made up of pretty coloured bits and pieces. Science always comes first, practical applications of that science may come at some time later.

That's always been the case.

[CraigS]

Ok so now this is starting to get into where I've spent a large chunk of my working life .. (R&D, Technical Product Development in a scientifically related field).
I think keeping the distinctions of the separate phases of the development process separated in the conversation might help .. ie: using the terms research, prototype testing, planning, design, implementation and systems testing. The demands of the market also drive various parts of this cycle thus (hopefully) resulting in a 'market desired' product.

The initiation of pure research is always difficult to justify, (like climbing a mountain), and probably can't be justified on the basis of existing product. As a result, often, the least expensive way of getting it off the ground (which may sometimes seem like 'selfishness'), is to model the thing using mathematical tools, previously developed theory & principles, etc. Theoretical development is an important part of the end-to-end process as is usually acknowledged as such by all involved (ie: industry). And I think that's why theoretical studies do get funded and result in theoretical academic study courses (as well as satellites, probes, telescopes, gizmos etc).

Sorry for my outburst of opinion on this one.
Back to my textbooks !!

Cheers

[Robh (Rob)]

Roughly, science works something like this ...
Observation and data lead to hypothesis.
Hypothesis leads to testable predictions.
Continued confirmation of hypothesis leads to an accepted model of theory.
Observed contradiction of either hypothesis or theory forces alternative models.

Astrophysics and cosmology are real science.

Regards, Rob.

[Nortilus (Josh)]

Just to add my own little note in here, Im planning on studying to be an astrophysicist or something along those lines soon. I am thinking of going to University or Queensland (St Lucia) mainly because the Physics course that I will do (Bachelor of Science - Physics) has Electives in Astronomy and related topics. If you want to be one, find which unis offer physics courses with astronomy related electives. Thats ya best bet. (and yes i know JCU has the astronomy course but i dont like townsville )

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Nortilus

Just to add my own little note in here, Im planning on studying to be an astrophysicist or something along those lines soon. I am thinking of going to University or Queensland (St Lucia) mainly because the Physics course that I will do (Bachelor of Science - Physics) has Electives in Astronomy and related topics. If you want to be one, find which unis offer physics courses with astronomy related electives. Thats ya best bet. (and yes i know JCU has the astronomy course but i dont like townsville )

You'd have to have your degree first before you could do any of the courses at JCU anyway (except maybe the certificate or diploma courses in astronomy). Whilst we do teach some astronomy in the undergrad physics courses, as an elective, there's really not enough staff in the Centre for Astronomy at present, to teach a full time undergrad course...money, mainly, is the stumbling block.

[Nortilus (Josh)]

are u a lecturer at JCU? I hope to be able to do something in research working out of a uni while continuing my studies further. I think we are in the greatest time of discovery at the moment with more and more exciting things been discovered about our wonderful universe.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Nortilus

are u a lecturer at JCU? I hope to be able to do something in research working out of a uni while continuing my studies further. I think we are in the greatest time of discovery at the moment with more and more exciting things been discovered about our wonderful universe.

No...a student, doing my masters degree.

[Nortilus (Josh)]

Wow, what are u doing your masters in? What particular field?

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by Nortilus

Wow, what are u doing your masters in? What particular field?

Astronomy and Astrophysics.