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Old 31-01-2010, 08:57 PM
Bern
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ATM-optics query

Hello everyone, this is my first post, and I am impressed by the amount of information and knowledge available here. Do people still hand grind their own mirrors, or is this a dying craft? My late father made several telescopes in the 1960s and '70s, mainly Newtonians and a casegrain. The primary mirrors varied in size from 4.5 inches to 8 inches. In the final stages of polishing he would assess the accuracy of the optics and focal length using various methods, such as straight-edge and grid tests, I think. He used different hand-polishing manoeuvres to correct optical deficiencies. I recall him referring to turned-down edges and turned-up edges among other things. He never had much time for commercially made or machine-ground mirrors because he felt they weren't up to standard or were just too expensive because of the enormous amount of labour required to make them. So how does the optical quality of current commercially made mirrors compare with hand-made ones? I would imagine mirror manufacturing technology has improved vastly since my father's time, but is a good hand-grind-polish job still regarded as superior to a commercial job? If not, how do you independently assess optical flaws in a commercial mirror before purchasing it? Also is there much optical variation within identical telescope models? Thanks for taking the time to read the post.

Bern
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Old 01-02-2010, 05:05 PM
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DavidU (Dave)
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Hi Bern, years ago a hand finished parabolic mirror was the only way to go.
You could purchase a machine finished spherical mirror that was of good quality. Still to this day a very high spec mirror is only going to come from a skilled polisher. You can pay many more times the price of a modern cheap mirror. (ie: Zambuto, Galaxy,Suching etc).
These days I have seen some very nice mass produced mirrors from Skywatcher,GSO and Orion. I think the Chinese have perfected machine figuring to some degree. The beauty of this is it makes it an affordable hobby to get into.
Here is a test report of 2 GSO 16" mirrors (quite good for the price).
http://translate.googleusercontent.c...9-bQ#post35463
Here is a test report from a fine hand made mirror
http://translate.googleusercontent.c...hb_g#post35325
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Old 01-02-2010, 09:46 PM
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Blue Skies (Jacquie)
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Yes people do grind their own mirrors, but more for the experience rather than from necessity. Its far cheaper to buy one these days than to make one, and the quality of the off-the-shelf stuff is pretty darn good today.

Modern day mirrors made on machines are much better than they used to be, they've come leaps and bounds even in the last ten years! But if you want the very best then yes its still a hand finished mirror and you pay for it.

As for quality, that depends on how finicky you are. I've had endless conversations with people about mirror quality and basically very few people will be able to tell a 'good' one from an 'excellent' one, the difference these days is that small. Even the chinese scopes are pretty good, the design flaws are not so much the optics but the housings and accessories.

As far as I know you can't assess the quality of the optics before purchase these days, and you wont get a report either from the big commercial chains. Quality is becoming pretty consistant and 'dogs' are rare.

And the eyepieces these days will make a big difference too - the good eps will blow you away! (but they are personal preferences, I find, you just need to find the ones that suit your scope and give you pleasure to use).

There is an active ATM email list that is fairly hardcore if you're still wanting to do your own, largely populated by Americans but it is international, and I can post the link to join if you're interested. Or just post here, there are several mirror makers on the forums that shouldn't mind helping out.

(so she says, looking guiltily at the half-polished 10" mirror sitting under the desk next to her... )
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Old 02-02-2010, 12:09 AM
Wavytone
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Only reason to make one is because you can't buy the mirror you want. They are so cheap these days, making one yourself makes no sense at all if you can buy one. I made a total of 5 in my younger and sillier days, but no more.

If buying a commercial mirror, either buy a cheapie and take a punt, or spend quite a lot more on one from a reputable maker that might stand by their claims for quality.

Premium eyepieces won't cover a rotten primary mirror - if anything they will make its faults all the more evident to those who know what they are looking at.
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wavytone View Post
Premium eyepieces won't cover a rotten primary mirror - if anything they will make its faults all the more evident to those who know what they are looking at.
I agree! What I was trying to say that if you got an off-the-shelf commercial mirror that a good eyepiece will be an advantage and will add to the overall experience. But you still need collimation, seeing etc to come together. You can't substitute that.
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidU View Post
These days I have seen some very nice mass produced mirrors from Skywatcher,GSO and Orion. I think the Chinese have perfected machine figuring to some degree. The beauty of this is it makes it an affordable hobby to get into.]
Casual tests don't portray some of the fundamentals behind the typically 2X cost difference between the mass produced imports and custom made mirror, ( which are not just cheaper because of cheap labour and machine production . To achieve a fine optical surface that will last , you need to start with a low expansion substrate that is fine annealed .This slow cooling ( annealing ) is what costs money because it takes energy and it takes weeks.

As an optics professional that has tested a lot of this glass with a polarising light box , I see that these high expansion substrates used in the mass production scopes are all coarse ( fast ) annealed which is where a large part of the cost saving comes in. Without a stress free piece there is no long term guarantee about the stability of shape of the glass. Glass with internal stress also behaves unpredictably under different cooling gradients that are seasonal.
As a craftsmen though I can't work on a piece of glass with unknown longer term mechanical stability.

Mark

Last edited by Satchmo; 02-02-2010 at 01:49 PM.
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  #7  
Old 06-02-2010, 07:01 PM
Bern
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Mirror query

Thank you to all who replied. Very helpful.
Bern
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  #8  
Old 15-02-2010, 11:08 AM
skies2clear
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Quote: "They are so cheap these days, making one yourself makes no sense at all if you can buy one. I made a total of 5 in my younger and sillier days, but no more."

Well it depends if you want the rewarding experience of doing it yourself and learning a lot in the process. As stated, you made 5 mirrors already, so maybe you have done your time and had the reward, at least in some knowledge gained, and hopefully with the final result too. But others have never had a go, and no doubt, many of them don't want to either for various reasons.

These days, you have the choice, whereas years ago, there wasn't much of an option than to have a go yourself, if you wanted the chance of getting a decent optic. We are spoiled these days, with a choice of low cost and good performing optics, or high end precision, at a higher, but still very fair cost, when you consider how much time and effort go into fabrication, as well as the premium materials used, as Mark mentioned.

As far as differences between mass produced optics and premium "hand made" optics, despite the better quality of mass produced, there is definitely a difference between these and genuine premium optics, with all the usual qualifiers, such as good seeing conditions, collimation, thermal equilibrium, and excellent ancillary optical components such as secondary mirror and oculars.

Mark could elaborate further, but it's my understanding premium "hand made" doesn't necessarily literally mean glass pushed by hand, as far as I understand, even the premium opticians still uses machines for grinding and polishing, but perhaps using hands for final figuring. I imagine it would be very tiring pushing a piece of 2" thick and 20" diam. mirror by hand for hours on end, even though it can be done I would think the "hand made" part is more to do with the skill, knowledge, extra care, quality of materials and substrate, extra time taken to polish carefully and the testing techniques used, as a basic guide,

Clear skies
Nick

Last edited by skies2clear; 15-02-2010 at 11:21 AM.
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