The philosopy of astro imaging

[cwjohn (Chris)]

I am a first time poster who is a long time astroimager that has been out of the hobby for a few years for personal / business reasons and looking to get back involved.

Like many who get involved with this crazy activity the first time around I became smitten to the degree that large sums of money were involved and before I knew it I had a large observatory, a range of high end scopes, several mounts and various sbig cameras and other sorted paraphanalia.

Since then I have moved on changing states and living accommodation. I still have a lot of gear in storage but times have moved on technically and I live in an apartment so in many ways I am looking at a blank slate as to what my next moves are.

However, being somewhat older and wiser, before putting another down payment on on Peter Ward’s next Ferrari, I considered it appropriate to examine exactly why I undertook this hobby in the first place and what exactly I enjoy about it. In undertaking this sort of navel gazing perhaps I can tailor my expenditure for maximal happiness as it were. Naturally I would welcome the feedback of others in this forum.

If I consider this logically I need to start at certain basic conclusions.

I guess I would start with the image itself or in other words the output of the endeavour. I have the wherewithal to download raw Hubble data and process it.to produce world class images, this costing absolutely nothing but time. When I ask myself if this activity would be in any way satisfying then the answer is unequivocally no. Similarly, and much more expensively I can utilise any number of internet sites to use first class, large aperture scopes and top of the range equipment to acquire data. Again, I ask myself would this be in any way satisfying and the answer is again unequivocally no.

Ergo I conclude satisfaction is NOT about the end product (to wit the image) per se.

Secondly, I ask myself if the astronomical part of the equation is a key ingredient, but in examination of this aspect I have to ask myself whether the use of time, resource and funds in astroimaging is better used in this endeavour than spending on astronomical education, an area that I am quite familiar with. Without doubt however, I would learn significantly more about astronomy if my time were devoted to learning, books, reading papers on astro-ph etc.

Ergo I conclude the satisfaction is NOT about learning about astronomy.

Thirdly, I ask myself if the activity is based on comraderie. Well, some of my most enjoyable times in astronomical activities have been crowding around a big dob with a bunch of fellow astronomers preferably with a beer or glass of wine or three. In fact (and I have not discounted this approach) if this were the main aim I would purchase a 25-30” dob which is easily transportable and travel around the various dark sites together with a case of my favourite wine Nothing attracts attention like a big dob and the views and the company improve into the night in direct relation to the amount of alcohol consumed. However, when I ask myself whether this is the approach I wish to take the answer in not a definitive but a general no.

Ergo I conclude that the satisfaction does not lie significantly with the comraderie.

Well, its simple, I hear you saying, its all really to do with the related disciplines of optics, electronics, computers and software all rolled up into the significant challenge of combining these factors to produce an optimal end result, and there is no doubt there is some truth in this view. However, if this were the simple truth then the amount of money expended would be irrelevant. Would it not be equally challenging to see what image you could obtain from a medium quality optic on a synta mount with a DSLR as compared to a RCOptic RC, Paramount ME and a high end Sbig camera. What behoves us to want to spend ever increasing amounts of funds in search of even greater quality of images NONE of which will come within a bulls roar of the quality of a Hubble image. In saying this I should be clear here. Of course many if not most imagers are constrained by funds, and thus the choice is not there for them, but this will not stop them saying “I wish I had an AP mount, and SBIG camera, 2” Astronomic filters etc etc.

Further, as you move up the technology and cost tree invariably the challenge decreases. For instance it is a hell of a lot easier to image with an AP refractor on an AP mount than a Synta refractor on a Synta mount so ergo the lower cost solution is the more challenging ergo surely the lower cost solution will give the most satisfaction. Unfortunately, this does not accord with my personal experience.

A similar line of argument relates to home observatories that are great in terms of access but invariably sub optimal in terms of seeing and light conditions.

I guess I could go on philosophising forever on this topic, but not necessarily come to any conclusion if in fact there is a conclusion to be had.

What I would like to hear from other imagers is an answer to the fundamental philosophical question “What do I really enjoy about astroimaging, and how do I go about maximising that enjoyment”. I don’t want to turn this into a pissing contest between low cost and high cost solutions. Let us assume that cost is no object. Astroimaging costs not only money but time away from other activities in life. Surely there must be a satisfactory satisfactional return and that must be dependent on certain parameters. I would like to really understand what those are.

If you have not fallen asleep reading this then I would welcome your feedback.

Cheers
Chris

[Paddy (Patrick)]

Hi Chris and welcome to IIS. I can't respond to your post from an imaging perspective as I am only into visual observing and I'm quite happy to look at other people's wonderful images. I'd be going for the big dob myself. I think though that your post is very interesting and the thing that I would add is that you have separated the components of your interest ie results, camaraderie, equipment and optics challenges etc. Maybe the combination matters. For me if I were to go into imaging, all would be important and I would not be very happy with results that are not good quality, but it wouldn't just be results that would drive me.

Just some thoughts from the sideline.

[bmitchell82 (Brendan)]

Very interesting this thread should come about, what is my drive? what is my passion about? sometimes i ask myself this but to me it comes down to some key points

- Im technically minded, having something to tinker with makes ME happy and gives me something to occupy my spare time with.

- To produce the very best that i can with the equipment given, it makes me feel proud when i have produced a excellent image

- Think creatively not just take another photo.

[DJDD]

Thanks, Chris, for the thought provoking thread.
I just started down the imaging path when I took up further study thus curtailing my imaging experience.

However, for me what drew me to imaging was the level of engagement in astroimaging that was missing in visual astronomy.

For visual astronomy, other than swapping eyepieces, i could not get "closer" to the object than i already was and there was no real way for me to improve any skills (I realise that with more experience you can see more but that must end somewhere).

Whereas with imaging there is constant improvement, both in setting up the equipment and post-processing, as well as feeling that you have more "impact" upon the results of the session.

anyway, that may not have been explained well...

It will be interesting to hear from other people as I really just started down the path when I stopped... now I just try to get out to do some visual observing when I can.

[Moon (James)]

Chris
That is a great first post - welcome to IIS.
I see it something like this:

We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon... (interrupted by applause) we choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too.

regards
James

[netwolf]

It is the journey and the people you meet along the way.

Earth is not flat, Earth not centre of universe, Eart moves around the sun, the Sun moves around the galaxy............................ We continue a journey that began before us and those who come after will continue the journey beyond our understanding. So we leave footprints behind and become history.

[avandonk]

Chris I think netwolf said it first 'it is the journey not the destination'.

I like to tinker and make 'cheap' equipment perform better by radical modification. It keeps my mind and body active. There is not much fun in modifying top of the range stuff as you would most probably make it perform below factory settings.

Astrophotography must be the most demanding and frustrating of all photographic pursuits. It is this that makes it very satisfying when you have a minor 'win'.

It is a bit like golf where you have expensive equipment that even in experienced hands don't give consistent results.

You are really just testing yourself against yourself.

How many books have you read where the hero/ine faces many challenging tasks/situations that only have the effect of making them win the final challenge because of these experiences.

Can you really face the ultimate monster without a few practice bouts with his minions?

Finally it is what YOU make of it yourself.

Bert

[troypiggo (Troy)]

I've been thinking about this very thing and was going to post about it soon, but you beat me to it.

Conclusion I came to was that I love the way it combines photography, astronomy, computing, image processing all together. You need to be extremely methodical. There's quite a bit of technical stuff to know and practise.

I love photography, but don't like (what I perceive as) the pressure of shooting people. I'm not that artistic, but I know the technical side of photography and composition. I like shooting things that you don't normally see with the naked eye, that's why I think I'm drawn to astro and macro photography. Both are presenting subjects that you can't make out to that sort of detail with the naked eye.

I love technical things. Putting this with that to get a result, put it with something else to get a different result. Tweaking equipment. Learning new photoshop tips and tricks for image processing.

As you mention, striving to achieve the best possible image with the gear you have.

All of the above.

[bojan]

I stopped philosophising about this long time ago.. actually it was never part of my thinking...

The process goes something like this:

1) I want to achieve something useful (take a series of pics of nova for example, to obtain the light curve)
2) could it be done with what I have already and with minimal tinkering?
3) IF yes, then I do it. IF no, what do I need to achieve the goal? (Financial budget is minimal, or non-existent for the start (it can increase, though).. however, the crap yards and used/wasted equipment and DIY are acceptable ways to proceed)
4) Are results acceptable? (for me... I am trying not to be driven by standards of my peers and general community.. especially sellers of astro equipment.. because this, contrary to general thinking, is just distracting me from my original direction, and only increases cost, both in time spent and money wasted, which could be used for more useful things. I want to be in control of this hobby, and not allowing the hobby to take control of me - if this is possible at all).
5) IF yes good :-) IF NO, GOTO 1 (sometimes this step is with goals redefined)

Never ending loop.......

[troypiggo (Troy)]

But Bojan, you've posted how you go about your imaging, not why.

Why are you drawn to astroimaging? What makes it attractive to you?

[bojan]

Originally Posted by troypiggo

But Bojan, you've posted how you go about your imaging, not why.

Why are you drawn to astroimaging? What makes it attractive to you?

But I did
Astroimaging for me is a tool to achieve something useful ( item 1) ).
It is not a goal per se.

[g__day (Matthew)]

For me I operate in quanta. For a period of years I can put down so much cash, I have so much time, there is so much I want to learn and folk I want to interact with and learn or share learning with. That is my quanta. Those terms define my options.

Where does the joy arrive? Well from planning and executing the best series of progressions I can amongst those quanta. I backyard observe from a home made observatory. I remote control all my gear. My pointing, focus and tracking are excellent for my gear's cost.

So now its about learning photoshop and better techniques to process images (the way Jase can) before I move up to better imaging gear and or quality refractor land.

I don't feel the need to be Hubble or operate Keck, but I do like gluing ten bits of gear together, planning my targets, having it all come together and being able to campaign it out and still spend lots of time with my family.

It's a hobby for me - if there was a black box solution that did it all perfectly - it would lessen the enjoyment.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by cwjohn

....... What behoves us to want to spend ever increasing amounts of funds in search of even greater quality of images NONE of which will come within a bulls roar of the quality of a Hubble image.....

A brave posting Chris, but applying the Socratic method, I would dispute the Hubble is the be-all-and-end-all of astronomical imaging.

There is a vast ocean of superb astronmical imagery out there, that the Hubble due its narrow field of view, is simply is not suited to.

Deep sky images can and do benefit from taking a wider view (Martin's recent STX image of M31 comes to mind) plus eclipses, auora, star trails, wide & ultra wide field that are not even on Hubble's resume'

Having the right tool for the job does make life easier, and I'm sure drives many astroimagers through some not inexpensive equipment upgrades....but this is by no means the only end to some very creative, and beautiful imagery that can be taken with some very basic tools.

As the old saying goes: a skilled tradesman never blames his tools.

[dugnsuz (Doug)]

I do it because it remains fun and I still get excited about the images I can produce. I'm less passionate about the gear and steep, expensive upgrade paths - I've found that each upgrade brings with it technical challenges which focuses me away from the creative enjoyment I get from the hobby. KISS theory advocate here!
That said, I do try to maximize (and push) the potential of my setup where I can (given tight budget!) - feel like I haven't even scratched the surface in that regard.
Great thread - thanks.
Doug

[Octane (Humayun)]

Chicks dig it.

[Paul Haese]

Making cool images. Simple as that is my answer. I don't care about the journey crap. I have been in the hobby since 9 and now I am nearly 46. The journey stuff just does not wash anymore. The telescopes and cameras are a means to an end as far as I am concerned. I have always loves photography and astrophotography is just one aspect of my interest. Getting good images is what drives me in this field. The better the gear you have the better the chance of attaining that goal. Just my opinion.

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by Octane

Chicks dig it.

I get the opposite reaction.

When I tell women I image heavenly bodies with a telescope they think I am a pervert aiming for the neighbour's window instead of the skies.

Steven

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by Octane

Chicks dig it.

I take you are single Humayan, wives dont "Dig" it, they put up with it.

Just ask Multiweb what his wife thinks of his C11 "Big John"

[Octane (Humayun)]

lol, guys, I was being facetious.

For me, I'd have to side with Troy and Paul.

I have been interested in photography for a long time, about half my life, and, astrophotography was a natural progression.

People like Dr. Gendler, Jennings, Ward, Davis, Pugh, Croman, Block, Gabany, et al., serve as inspirations. Whilst I'll never own the equipment they do, I will endeavour to push what modest equipment I have to its limit. This is also a reason why I engage in this obsessive hobby; to see how far I can go.

Regards,
Humayun

[lacad01 (Adam)]

What a great thread I am by no means an imager but am slowly building up the gear to be able to plunge into that world.
I've asked myself the same questions as to why but it has to be in the journey and process as other people have already mentioned otherwise to a certain extent it loses its attraction.
For me I look forward to capturing and processing images that I can in no way pursue visually from my light polluted location. There's just something special about getting involved hands on than doing it vicariously