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  #1  
Old 24-10-2009, 11:44 PM
Ironbird (Terri)
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Peltier-less Cooling

Greetings and Salutations!

I presented this cooling strategy (of mine) in a Gamer's Over-clocking forum. They're final word was don't come back until you've got some data.

The idea was as follows; employ a can of circuit chiller (spray can) with a thermostatically controlled nozzle .. the exact cooling protocol is yet to be determined .. suffice to say when the action heats up .. the can delivers a drizzle of super cooling enviro-benign substance to where the action is. They're objections were legion .. primarily centered around thermal roller-coastering.

Let's examine the potential utiliity for camera cooling purposes. Allow me to suggest I'm not in the cooling industry and consequently have no hidden subversive agenda in promoting this particular approach.

In 1000 words or less here's the 'protocol'. Accessing the back of the sensor we apply a silicon grease layer I suppose it could be silicon glue as well. This substance displays reasonable thermal conductivity and more importantly is electrically inert. Don't use heat-sink compound which although having greater thermal conductivity contains zinc-oxide which has marked electrical conductivity. Electrical and thermal conductivity normally go hand in hand. So silicone grease/glue (RTV) is probably the best choice .. My suggestion is to validate all this on a less-expensive web camera first.

So, next we apply a cut out of a cpu heat exchanger .. a corner cut of the older 386 style cpu finned aluminum extrusions .. this we mount with the base flush against the silicon coupling .. probably a reasonable idea is to first apply two thin coats of silicon glue (as an electrically insulative barrier) - the heat exchanger (being made of aluminum) is very much an electrical conductor. So then we apply a layer of silicon grease and press our heat exchanger (thermal mass) against this grease. Ultimately we are going to use a moderatly fine tube to introduce the coolant in-between these fins.

My 1/2 CCD sensor is mounted away from the board (spider-like) .. it's a consideration to bore an as-large-as-permissible hole in some yet-to-be discussed fashion through the center of the sensor mount facilitating direct thermal conductance - unhindered by thermal properties of the fibre-glass circuit board - which invariably will conduct heat edge-wise into the cooling zone.

Now we spray some iso-cryonite expanding foam in a can insulation onto some scrap cardboard and use a stick to judiciously insulate the sides principally. Think in 3-D to insulate in such fashion as to discourage heat flow to the rear and the sensor and encourage heat extraction. Applying a clear perspex thickness to the front sensor-surface may not present a particular optical hindrance.

Circuit Chiller does it's job through evaporative cooling .. so it needs a little bit of space to work it's wonders. We apply it via the feed tube to the base of the finned region .. it cools the beegees out of the base of the heat exchanger. Just keep a fine 10% throttle-setting going on the can of relatively inexpensive and residue free cooler .. the can should sit upright.

If frost build-up is a problem .. keep the region positively vented with air as trickle-fed from a scuba tank. Air as found in scuba tanks is very dry .. interestingly divers suffer from dry throat as the compressed air is very much moisture-free. Perhaps a can of Dust-Off will serve this purpose as well. Note ... it's dangerous to bleed air in a single-stage fashion off a scuba tank .. requires double-staging .. be advised. Bigger experts than me re: safe low-volume bleeding of high pressure, high possible danger - compressed air (nitrogen etc) tanks.

Hope this all seems somewhat reasonable .. possible backyard home-mechanics conversion from surplus bank-style ccd cameras to high-performance, zero dark-current - astro cam. Whew : )

Terri in Toronto
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  #2  
Old 24-10-2009, 11:59 PM
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Bassnut (Fred)
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Outrageously "cool" idea, so left field, love it, but given astroimaging (if your serious, and youd have to be to set this up) requires say, 10 or more hrs of exposure time per project, wouldnt this require gallons of coolant, applied at very regular intervals?. So then, a (even high power) peltier would be far more cost efficient?.
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  #3  
Old 25-10-2009, 04:20 AM
Ironbird (Terri)
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Peltier-less Cooling

Sizing the apparatus is an unknown quantity - at this juncture. I do know - by way of the back of the envelope - that this stuff cools like Jack the Bear. And if we had a thermocouple-based loop-back system to electronically regulate the release (think disposable butane lighter hack) so that if we are detecting a return to above acceptable imager temps .. we deliver a metered blast of mind-bendingly cool Chill-Out.

This could well be delivered to the back of a single-stage peltier cooler providing a nice chilly back-door temperature. Ideally; a sintered metal spheroid pad attached to the back of the single-stage Peltier device would provide needed thermal mass (thermal inertia) ostensibly to even out the humps .. allow for more regulated behaviour. mhm : )

Could have a 'starter can' to get the thermal ball rolling .. and then switch to auto. Monitor coolant left in can by placing can on analytical balance of some description .. i.e digital scale.


I'm glad you like my left-field, out-of-bounds ideas : )

reasonably readable discussion re: CCD cooling considerations - check out some of the other articles they have to offer. Nice broad range .. reasonably in-depth..could benefit from a bit of proof-reading ..oh well ... busy world we live in. : )
http://www.astrophys-assist.com/educate/noise/noise.htm



The stuff is cheap .. I see it on sale at the various electronic shops around town .. 4 bucks a half liter-sized vessel we'll suggest. Plus tax. : )

some circuit chiller specs .. not that much info online (surprisingly)
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en...-8&sa=N&tab=wi

Silicone Grease
Ask around at contractor plumbing supply-houses for silicone grease .. otherwise tough to find .. used in high (hard) vacuum systems .. expensive on ebay (tube for 40+ dollars) .. 5 gram little pot for 3 dollars at plumbing place woo hoo : ) I use it on any and all rubber fittings. Protects against UV degradation and won't chew rubber - over time - as petroleum-based greases/lubricants are known to do. 10 - 4

Last edited by Ironbird; 25-10-2009 at 05:24 AM. Reason: refinement
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  #4  
Old 25-10-2009, 07:36 AM
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In the era of film photography, dry ice (frozen CO2) was used as coolant for film (it was placed behind the film in a special container).
So the idea of non-peltier cooling is not new, nor it is implausible.

Simply try it and report results..
However, peltier cooling may still be much more practical, compared to other methods.
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  #5  
Old 25-10-2009, 06:37 PM
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mswhin63 (Malcolm)
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Liquid cooling is used a bit for high end computers, one good thing is the freon is piped removing fans off the CPU and possibly if it can be retrofitted the camera. Less vibration.

http://www.austin.net.au/ProductList...3/Default.aspx

One model I found but quite pricey.
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  #6  
Old 25-10-2009, 07:04 PM
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One of the first cook-book CCD cameras was using water cooling...
http://www.wvi.com/~rberry/cookbook/cookbook.htm
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  #7  
Old 25-10-2009, 07:57 PM
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mswhin63 (Malcolm)
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Here is a cheaper solution, whether there is mor to it, I did not read it much:

http://www.thermaltake.com.au/Produc...ingSystem.aspx
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  #8  
Old 25-10-2009, 11:14 PM
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scopemankit (Chris)
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The watercooling on the Cookbook cameras is taking heat away from the hot side of the peltier cooler.
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  #9  
Old 26-10-2009, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scopemankit View Post
The watercooling on the Cookbook cameras is taking heat away from the hot side of the peltier cooler.
True.. what I was thinking ??? anyway, instead of water, some other liquid may have been used to go below zero...
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  #10  
Old 26-10-2009, 01:09 PM
Ironbird (Terri)
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kwik follow-up notes_02

Quote:
Originally Posted by bojan View Post
True.. what I was thinking ??? anyway, instead of water, some other liquid may have been used to go below zero...
Only if that other liquid is sent through a refrigeration cycle of some description. Circulating freon does not for refrigeration make. It makes for heat exchange possibly but not active cooling (refrigeration).

Advantage to my CHILL OUT cooling is zero vibration .. vibration from thermally induced contraction and expansion perhaps. But not from a cooling fan.

For adiabatic-expansion cooling (of thermal IR cameras) as heavy a gas as possible is employed...Argon typically. The greater the atomic mass the greater the delta T for a given mole of gas (flow). Nitrogen is also used but it requires twice the volumetric flow-rate for the same delta T.

Normal welding Ar contains CO2 which would clog the fine delivery tube at the sensor end .. Lab grade Ar was preferred for continuous operation. Otherwise only intermittent operation while the CO2 had to warm up enough to sublimate. Plus those cameras (Hughes Probe-Eye) used small cylinders that operated at around 5000+ PSI compared to a scuba tank of around 3200 PSI. It required a special compressor to fill. All in all - impractical.
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  #11  
Old 26-10-2009, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironbird View Post
All in all - impractical.
Exactly right
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  #12  
Old 29-10-2009, 02:56 PM
Ironbird (Terri)
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kwik follow-up notes 03

Quote:
Originally Posted by bojan View Post
Exactly right

All in all cumbersome cooling for purposes of thermography - but that's not what this thread was about.

This thread is about the use of latent heat of vaporization to achieve suitable Astro-Cam thermal criterion without the use of Peltier cooling - or perhaps in conjuction with Peltier cooling.

I suspect Peltier cooling has it's share of problems - let's review some of them:

Peltiers require a fan - fans and telescopes traditionally have not gotten along so well. Vibration comes to mind. Possible electronic noise - if it's a faulty fan. And dust collection or generation - we'll suggest : )

The coolers themselves have certain issues. Potential for electronic noise perhaps - especially if it's faulty - we'll suggest (again). Potential for rapid reheat resulting in thermal shock of sensitive ccd - this is mitigated through use of a cold finger. Significant in-field current drain and potentially inconsistent thermal performance - as described in the literature.

"Chill-OUt" certainly dispenses with any mechanical vibration issues .. as there is no fan required. I'm a no-fan fan. (Are you a fan of no-fan fans)?

Can't imagine there is any possible electronic-noise generation. These "chill fluids" are specifically compounded to not encourage static build-up (btw) and additionally; "leaves no residue" .. < to be taken with a grain of salt this 'no-residue' claim - particularly in the "precision-optics department".

As mentioned previously - it might be of benefit to employ chill fluid with a modified Peltier cooling strategy .. fan-less Peltier cooling we'll call it. It would seem prudent to employ a cold-finger of some not-insignificant thermal mass. This to prevent wild thermal deviation with incident sensor shock.

The can of coolant can be far-removed from the sensor end-of-things. This to isolate any "spray can valve actuation-associated vibration".

The cold finger is to have a thermocouple incorporated into it - to trigger shots of Icy Cold-Blast 2010© as necessary.

I encourage readers to experiment in this capacity and report back on their findings.

10-4
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  #13  
Old 29-10-2009, 03:31 PM
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Terri,
As I suggested earlier, try to build a prototype and write the report, we are all certainly looking forward to see it here on this forum first
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  #14  
Old 30-10-2009, 07:48 AM
Ironbird (Terri)
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kwik follow-up notes_04

OK ... the fully-automated, coolant consumption-optimized configuration cooling strategy is principally geared toward long-duration exposure(s). My requirements are more of the short duration variety - yet we are pursuing the same goals - enhanced contrast and noise reduction. My prime-directive is achieving suitably low temperatures with no un-expected 'side-effects' with little or moderate emphasis only in the coolant-consumption optimization department.

I see my set-up as particularly basic. Consisting of a constant-on trickle-feed. Albeit basic - it's promises to be never-the-less; informative .. We get a solid stab at answering the age-old question - do we see a sensor-specific, marked reduction in dark current figures - as achieved through evaporative, non-regenerative cooling? This, again, in the Peltier-less, insulated, trickle-fed cold-finger configuration. Pretty straightforward. I have still to construct such a test-bed .. it's not out-of-the-question .. it's a matter of finding a corner of favourable space-time continuum.

Here's a couple of links to websites detailing the use of sound cards as A/D converters .. good laptop-based process-monitoring starting point(s).

A)
http://www.dxzone.com/catalog/Software/Oscilloscope/
B)
http://www.filetransit.com/view.php?id=50233
C)
http://software.filestube.com/o/oscilloscope

It's known that a thermocouple probe generates a bit of heat "on it's own". This might influence results - emphasis on "might". it's the Seebeck effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect

It can offset temperature measurements by a degree or two - is my understanding.

Over.

Last edited by Ironbird; 30-10-2009 at 10:24 AM. Reason: grammatical refinement
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  #15  
Old 06-11-2009, 07:25 PM
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bmitchell82 (Brendan)
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this would be a great idea if the specific spray was going to be always avalible and avalible everywhere for a very low price as consumables arnt the best way to go about things.
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  #16  
Old 20-11-2009, 01:01 PM
Ironbird (Terri)
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Stage A_01

Let's suggest whe are at the half way point and employing generous amounts of hot-melt glue to not only fix delivery-tubes to delivery-holes but also (to) form an insulative barrier/coolant chamber between the board and the raised CCD sensor chip - proper.

This may or may not be such a great idea as the chiller fluid needs "elbow room" to evaporate - to affect max cooling. As it is - it's a bit confined and the chiller medium is exiting the back surface exit-hole seemingly thermally unaffected. It may well turn out that the best cooling is achieved via a thin trickle (of fluid) as opposed to a blast of gas. The fluid can be encouraged out of the can under low flow rate conditions and by keeping the can on it's side. Stay tuned .. we're heading into the clubhouse turn.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...ot_melt_01.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...ot_melt_02.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...melt_02_01.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...ot_melt_03.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...ot_melt_04.jpg




This is the power supply portion primarily for two banks of LED illuminators - which I have disconnected for our purposes. I'm confident that what appears as the main logic board has now been down-sized onto a pin-head : )

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...ot_melt_05.jpg


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...melt_06_01.jpg


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...ot_melt_06.jpg


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...ot_melt_07.jpg


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...ot_melt_08.jpg


I'm hoping this all works once I fire it up (oops .. 'cryo' it up) .. poor camera never imagined it would be put through these paces - i.e. all manner of home-spun torture. My earlier attempt at installing a peltier cooler turned into an abject peltier cooling fail. The signal was 4 times noisier. This, most likely as a result of using heat-sink compound as the thermal couplant < the stuff is conductive (zinc oxide) and shorted all the traces .. doh! Suffice to suggest it was an "on-off test" (there was an image - albeit snowy) and that I have yet to energize the camera - since.

I cleaned out all the misguided zinc oxide - therefore: unforseen circumstances not-withstanding .. we should see 'first dark' in the near future.

"Closing Up Shop" pix << have yet to power up .. need to catch my breath :S


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...ot_melt_10.jpg


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...ot_melt_09.jpg


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...ot_melt_11.jpg



http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...ot_melt_12.jpg

Last edited by Ironbird; 21-11-2009 at 08:49 AM.
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  #17  
Old 14-12-2009, 12:12 AM
Ironbird (Terri)
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Hi - well unfortantely I'd cooked the camera on my previous attempt at cooling the sensor (this when trying to fit a peltier cooler to the sensor). So no final judgement yet on the efficacy of this Peltier-less cooling protocol. I have to choose another camera - I don't want to use my really good little super-sensitive CCD cam (although it has pretty easy access).

OK lessons learned so far ... use a thicker rubber feed pipe .. it gets pretty brittle pretty quick so be advised: no flexing of feedpipe during operation.

In the very least - this circuit chiller-in-a-can is "peltier-assist fluid". The stuff is mind-numbingly cold. Snap-crackle-pop cold

Will report back on further developments. Have a pleasant day!
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  #18  
Old 18-12-2009, 05:28 PM
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Could I just suggest that just because something is cold unless you can control it adequately you will come to grief.

Bert
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