K3CCD Tools Drift Explorer

DavidTrap (David) · #1 25-11-2009, 12:38 AM

Hi All,

I've been searching through IceInSpace and multiple other websites tonight trying to work out what I will need to try Drift Aligning with software assistance. I've read the guides on Drift Explorer on this site and it sounds fabulous.

My questions are:

1. What webcams can I use with K3CCD?
2. Specifically, where do I buy one?
3. Not really interested in modifying something - what is available off the shelf?
4. I have access to a friends LPI - it's about 4-5yrs old - would this work?
5. I have an Orion Star Shoot Autoguider - is there any software I can use with this?

Thanks in advance - have very little knowledge about webcams for astronomy...

Regards
David T

bojan · #2 25-11-2009, 06:02 AM

Hi David,
I am just playing with this software :-)
Answers to your questions (I am sure many others will also reply) :
1) any camera will work, as long as it is installed in Windows.
I am using old Philips Vesta, unmodified (for now).
2) Ebay for older models? DS, K-Mart, any other big store..
3) Any model will do.
4) I do not know..
5) ditto

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidTrap

Hi All,

I've been searching through IceInSpace and multiple other websites tonight trying to work out what I will need to try Drift Aligning with software assistance. I've read the guides on Drift Explorer on this site and it sounds fabulous.

My questions are:

1. What webcams can I use with K3CCD?
2. Specifically, where do I buy one?
3. Not really interested in modifying something - what is available off the shelf?
4. I have access to a friends LPI - it's about 4-5yrs old - would this work?
5. I have an Orion Star Shoot Autoguider - is there any software I can use with this?

Thanks in advance - have very little knowledge about webcams for astronomy...

Regards
David T

[1ponders] (Paul) · #3 25-11-2009, 07:22 AM

Hi David. Once you learn the process you won't regret it and will wonder what all the drama over drift aligning is all about. From a Raw start I can be aligned within 20min max (assuming no questions on how to do it from other astronomers

) to within 1 arcsec/min drift in both Altitude and Azimuth.

Ok your questions.
1 & 3. Any video for windows camera (vfw), WDM cameras, and Meade DSI (there are others but I wouldn't recommend them for drift aligning really. Better off with a webcam). I still use and prefer to use the toUcam 840 or 900. There is just no drama with them. Plus its easy to get 1.25" adapters for them. Also The Imaging Source Cameras do a fine job as well, though the exposure settings can cause a bit of mucking around at times. The other camera you may want to try as its basically a toUcam 840 is the Celestron Nextstar though I've not used one.

2. Telescopes-Astronomy (Matthew Lovell) in SA sells the ToUcams (not sure where else). Bintel and Steve Massey at Myastroshop sell The Imaging Source gear. I'm sure there are others.

4.Curse the Demon Gods of Astronomy for their callus pranks and delights. Run and don't stop running. Yes it will work but you'll probably wish you'd never heard of LPI by the time you are finished. I'm sure jjjnettie will pipe up with her experiences here.

5. No experience with this camera but if you can load it via the WDM selection it should work. I know the QHY5 won't work unfortunately and the OSSA is much the same thing. Only my guess though. It would be great if it did cos then you'd have a drift camera, a planetary camera and an autoguider.

good luck on the journey

peter_4059 (Peter) · #4 25-11-2009, 07:28 AM

David,

The only problem with using a webcam is finding a bright enough star in the correct locations for drift aligning. You'll need to find one near the intersection of the celestial equator and the meridian and one on the celestial equator near the horizon. I normally use my DSI II and have no problem finding a star however it can be quite difficult with a normal webcam because it is nowhere near as sensitive.

Peter

[1ponders] (Paul) · #5 25-11-2009, 07:34 AM

True Pete if you go for exactly the intersection, but realistically you can drift from anywhere within about 5 deg either side of the CE so finding a bright enough star won't be a prob. The only thing I use my ToUcam 840 these days is for drift aligning and unless it's cloudy I've never found I can't find a star. Having said that though if the camera is going to double up as a guide camera then the ability to expose for about 2 sec is a definite bonus for both drift aligning and autoguiding.

[1ponders] (Paul) · #6 25-11-2009, 07:38 AM

There is one accessory that I would suggest, though its not essential by any means, and that is a good quality flip mirror. Either that or make sure your finderscope is really well aligned with your camera and OTA especially if its a long FL scope. A flip mirror just makes it so much easier to find and center a star.....oh and also an illuminated reticle....and ...how much were you wanting to spend

jjjnettie (Jeanette) · #7 25-11-2009, 08:21 AM

Meade LPI.....
It's not sensitive enough for the job.
The only reason I use one for drift aligning is that I happened to have one and K3 recognises it.
As Paul said, run and keep on running.

DavidTrap (David) · #8 25-11-2009, 09:19 AM

Thanks for the info guys,

Will look into the cameras and see what I can sort out.

Regards
David T

DavidTrap (David) · #9 25-11-2009, 11:19 AM

Couple more questions:

Do I need a modified ToUcam? Do I just need the basic camera from Telescope-Astronomy and the 1.25inch mount?

Regards
David T

bojan · #10 25-11-2009, 11:27 AM

I do not think so.. However, you will need brighter stars for the task.
Modification enables camera to take longer exposures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidTrap

Couple more questions:

Do I need a modified ToUcam? Do I just need the basic camera from Telescope-Astronomy and the 1.25inch mount?

Regards
David T

DavidTrap (David) · #11 25-11-2009, 12:20 PM

Thanks again,

I'm having a look at some second hand DSI II Pros - might be an option.

Regards
David T

DavidTrap (David) · #12 25-11-2009, 12:36 PM

Hi Peter,

Just wanting to check - do you use any filters with your DSI II Pro when drift aligning? (I expect no, but just checking)

Ta
David

[1ponders] (Paul) · #13 25-11-2009, 01:06 PM

If you get a modded ToUcam then you will need to make sure you have a parallel port on your computer. Seriously though, think about getting a DMK or DBK if you are not getting a ToUcam. I've used ToUcam (900 and 840), DMK, DBK, DSI, LPI, ATiK along with a few others and I keep coming back to the ToUcam because it works first time everytime.

I've been drift aligning with K3 for about 5 years now and 99% of the time I used a ToUcam and I've never had a problem finding a star whether I was using an ED80 or or an 8" SCT (which is not needed by the way, you can get just as effective alignment with an ED80 as you can with an 8"sct). The ToUcam can be an issue if you want to autoguide and don't have anyway of adjusting where your guidescope points, but add a Focal Reducer or use a DMK/DBK and you are set for both worlds.

DavidTrap (David) · #14 25-11-2009, 01:53 PM

I have an Orion Star Shoot Autoguider that I am happy with for guiding, so am not interested in using a new camera for guiding.

I don't have a parallel port on my computer (MacBook running Windows XP), so a modified ToUcam is a problem - I thought it might be, and am glad I you have confirmed this.

I can buy a new DSI II Pro for around $500, which is cheaper than the DMK. I'm not looking for this as an imaging chip - my long-term plan is to persevere with my DLSR for another year or two and then upgrade to a proper CCD (I look at this as cheaper than buying a good quality DSLR and modifying it - I also have Nikon gear, so the Canon-Nikon debate is on my mind too)

I have seen a couple of recent DSIs sold on the web, and they aren't much cheaper than new - I understand the DSI prices dropped recently.

Last weekend I tried a drift alignment technique using the DSLR. I was happy with the results, but it required me getting into some rather strange positions to focus and align stars through the DSLR - a DSI might be kinder on my neck.

So many things to consider...

DT

Manav (Yugant) · #15 25-11-2009, 02:05 PM

Just a quick question is anyone aware of programs apart from K3CCD tools which are compatible with QHY5 guider?

I've read somewhere that PHD Guider and GuideMaster have a similar feature.

Has anyone tried using them? There is also a method mentioned here http://www.southern-astro.com.au/php...preciseCCD.php which may help but again not sure about the camera compatibility.

[1ponders] (Paul) · #16 25-11-2009, 05:05 PM

Many programs have X hairs or similar or a graph that can be used. What K3 has over the majority is that it will give you a numerical readout of what your drift is in arcsec/min. Once you get that to 0 (or close) in both Alt and Az you know you are polar aligned, you don't have to wait for graphs to move or stars to move off cross hairs.

Phd does have the cross hairs and a graph but I'm not sure if the graph can be used if you are not guiding.

Manav (Yugant) · #17 25-11-2009, 05:10 PM

Thanks Paul! I think I may experiment around with a spare webcam at home and see if I can get results. In the meantime I will go ahead with the QHY5 so I can finally put this autoguider saga to end.

[1ponders] (Paul) · #18 25-11-2009, 05:14 PM

If you have a webcam already then that is all you need. Take the lens out cut the end of a film canister and fix that to the webcam. The canister will fit very nicely into the eyepiece holder. The trickiest bit will be making sure the stuck on canister is as centered over the chip as you can get it. Just so its easier to align you finder and webcam and when slipping in eyepieces to find a star

peter_4059 (Peter) · #19 25-11-2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidTrap

Hi Peter,

Just wanting to check - do you use any filters with your DSI II Pro when drift aligning? (I expect no, but just checking)

Ta
David

I have the IV/IR filter permanently fitted but it is not necessary to make the camera work - just keeps the dust off the sensor.

DavidTrap (David) · #20 25-11-2009, 09:09 PM

Thanks for all that guys.

I'll have a think about this over the next day or so and hopefully come to a decision. I'm not keen on a Webcam - I can't use a modified one with my computer. I also want something sensitive as I want to use this in light-pollution. From what I've read a dedicated CCD might be the go.

Regards
DT