Is spelling old fashioned?

[matt]

Originally Posted by FredSnerd

Sorry,

Had to duck out but back now. Hmmmm, so many issues. First I didnt "Accus[e] .. [you] of holding some kind of self-assumed moral and intellectual high ground". I spoke about where your reasoning leads to. That is, where the logic of your reasoning leads to. Its fanciful to suggest that it was a personal attack and disingenuous of you to challenge me to find examples of where you have esposed these things. The whole reason for me bringing it up was to show that this is where the logic leads. Something I'd be wasting my time doing if thats what you espouse.

As to how you personally conduct yourself in you work and the licence you may or may not take with the language I dont know and its not important to my argument. The thing is, from what I have observed the media (not you personally, I'm not talking about you), politicians and the advertising world are constantly ignoring and bending the rules of grammer, spelling and distorting words when it suites them to get their meaning accross or to crack that joke or to make that pun or to get us thinking in a certain direction. If the language is plyable for them when it suites them then (i) it only encourages us to do the same and (ii) why shouldnt we.

As for me lumping your profession in with politicians. First I'm not talking about you personally but as for your prefession I have to say that yes I do feel that your profession is on the same team as politicians. Certainly not out team.

I'm not sure what the [e] bit's all about?

Anyway, I stand by my assertion. You appear to have an issue with people who hold certain standards of education and schooling in high regard. It appears you believe these people to be 'sticklers', and much of your argument appears based around us letting it go, and getting with the new tech-savvy program which involves some kind of language de-evolution which you believe we just have to learn to accept as inevitable.

I hasten to point out that the YouTube video link you provided featured fairly good spelling in the text, while promoting this Brave New World which we're mostly already familiar with.

I would still like some examples of what you're talking about when you make your fanciful broad generalisations about the media.

And as for the media not being on your team? Well, it's bloody funny how so many look to the media to keep politicians and their ilk honest, and how people like you expect the media to champion causes close to your heart or those of others, when it suits you.

That's the problem for folks like us in the media. We're most mostly damned if we do and damned if we don't. But we're always expected to do the legwork when you expect it, like some kind of lackey.

We're on your team...when we are saying what you want to hear or endorsing what you believe.

That's about it for me. Long live anarchy and 'creativity'...old mate! Go the 'grammer'!!!!!!!!!!!

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Originally Posted by matt

I'm not sure what the [e] bit's all about?

Anyway, I stand by my assertion. You appear to have an issue with people who hold certain standards of education and schooling in high regard. It appears you believe these people to be 'sticklers', and much of your argument appears based around us letting it go, and getting with the new tech-savvy program which involves some kind of language de-evolution which you believe we just have to learn to accept as inevitable.

I hasten to point out that the YouTube video link you provided featured fairly good spelling in the text, while promoting this Brave New World which we're mostly already familiar with.

I would still like some examples of what you're talking about when you make your fanciful broad generalisations about the media.

And as for the media not being on your team? Well, it's bloody funny how so many look to the media to keep politicians and their ilk honest, and how people like you expect the media to champion causes close to your heart or those of others, when it suits you.

That's the problem for folks like us in the media. We're most mostly damned if we do and damned if we don't. But we're always expected to do the legwork when you expect it, like some kind of lackey.

We're on your team...when we are saying what you want to hear or what you believe.

That's about it for. Long live anarchy and 'creativity'...old mate!

You can go on with this if you want but I clearly meant nothing personal about you.

I have very high regard for education and schooiling and its precisely because of this that I dont want to see time wasted on what in my respectful opinion is a waste of time and I feel sorry for young people who have to put up with this because thats how you were taught when you were a boy.

I never look to the media to keep politicians honest. The media are most of the problem in my opinion and I look forward to the growth of citizen reporting. God forbid I should ever look to the media to champion any cause.

[matt]

Originally Posted by FredSnerd

I look forward to the growth of citizen reporting. God forbid I should ever look to the media to champion any cause.

Yep...that'll be a great day.

Because, let's face it, truly great journalism and reporting, based on years of experience in information gathering and research, and understanding of libel and defamation laws...and everything else that goes along with being a good reporter, is just something anyone can can just get cracking on overnight!

And will they be good at speeling and grammer as we'll, or that won't matter in the Citizen Gazette?

Prey tell, your profession, sir?

[kinetic (Steve)]

One thing I admire is(are?) people like Bojan who take up learning
the intricacies of the English language with a passion.
They feel they are letting someone down to not at least try
their best. I sincerely hope that doesn't sound patronising Bojan....
I say, anyone who can speak in more than one language
very competently is a far better person than me! All 'props'
to them.

And secondly, as if almost on cue...my inbox tonight...

(while on the subject of proof readers):

paste >

Proofreading is a dying art, wouldn't you say?

Man Kills Self Before Shooting Wife and Daughter

This one I caught in the SGV Tribune the other day and called the Editorial Room and asked who wrote this. It took two or three readings before the editor realized that what he was reading was impossible!!! They put in a correction the next day.

I just couldn't help but sending this along. Too funny.
Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Expert Says

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers

Now that's taking things a bit far!
-----------------------------------------------------------

Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over

What a guy!
---------------------------------------------------------------

Miners Refuse to Work after Death

No-good-for-nothing' lazy so-and-so's!
------------------------------------------------------

Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant

See if that works any better than a fair trial!
----------------------------------------------------------

War Dims Hope for Peace

I can see where it might have that effect!

----------------------------------------------------------------

If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last Awhile

Ya think?!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Cold Wave Linked to Temperatures

Who would have thought!
----------------------------------------------------------------

Enfield ( London ) Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide

They may be on to something!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Red Tape Holds Up New Bridges

You mean there's something stronger than duct tape?
----------------------------------------------------------

Man Struck By Lightning: Faces Battery Charge

He probably IS the battery charge!
----------------------------------------------

New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group

Weren't they fat enough?!
-----------------------------------------------

Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Spacecraft

That's what he gets for eating those beans!
---------------- ---------------------------------

Kids Make Nutritious Snacks

Do they taste like chicken?
*********************************** *****

Local High SchoolDropouts Cut in Half

Chainsaw Massacre all over again!
*********************************** ****************

Hospitals are Sued by 7 Foot Doctors

Boy, are they tall!
*********************************** ********
And the winner is....


Typhoon Rips Through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead


Did I read that right?

Steve

[astroron (Ron)]

Very Funny Steve the last one is the best

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

English, in reality is a ******* language. Primarily Germanic in nature (yes), it also its has roots in Celtic, Arabic, French, Greek and even Latin. That said, I find English to be a chaotic mix or language rules. Try speaking German or Gaelige, where the rules are far stricter, at least from my experience.

I had an interesting discussion with my employer about all of this tonight - she has 30 years teaching experience on her side, and she feels that literacy and grammar are dreadful with todays modern children. I tend to agree with her. I've seen a very real drop in grammar over the past 20 something years, and I'm not imagining it either. That all said, my employer is also scathing of modern universities, where we see parrots in existence. Many years ago, the creme de la creme (excuse my laziness and lack of diacriticals) went to university. These days, everyone goes because it's de rigeur. That does not make it a quality education imho.

Dave

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Originally Posted by ngcles

,


Perhaps emoticons would be less used on this forum

Uh-Oh, I think Jen just passed out!

[DJDD]

Bit of a vexed topic...

Yes, spelling changes over time as our language evolves to accomodate new events, inventions and the like, but in this case everyone should then endeavour to use the same accepted spelling for any particular word at that time.

I am not sure how it would be possible for the language to change if we all endeavoured to, and were able to, use the same accepted spelling for any particular word at that time.

Grammar is just as, if not more, important than spelling. It's the way we use and place our words to define our message in a sentence to ensure its (note: no apostrophe in "its" in this case - we are not saying "it is" or "it has") context correctly. Without grammatical control the real message is lost and is then open to misinterpretation.

I agree pretty much completely with the message of the above quoted text. There are some grammatical standards we should adhere to (the use of the apostrophe is a good example); however, I also realise that grammar changes, and has changed, over the centuries.

Now, some would say that I should have written, "There are some grammatical standards to which we should adhere". hmmm...the second is grammatically correct but only to a rule that was made up to fit the rules of Latin...


Now, what about the use of the semi-colon ? And its use when teemed with the word "however" (as I used it above)?

What about starting a sentence with "And"?
However, what about starting a sentence with "however"?
Is it ok if I do it because I have some reasonable grasp of grammatical conventions and so can "bend the rules" when I want to?
some would say yes, some no.

oh, and what about the use of apostrophes in the written word, for example, using "can't" instead of "cannot" or "don't" instead of "do not"? I was taught never to use contractions in written works (letters and essays were all we had back then) but I see it in forums all of the time (this very thread, in fact). Is that correct?


As I mention above, some grammatical "rules" within English have been "made up" within the last century to match grammatical rules of another language (Latin). What the...?

I have a few pet peeves (overuse of commas, for instance) but I try not to let them ruin any friendships. On the other hand, I probably overuse ellipses (ellipsi?) and parentheses...which must drive people crazy! oh no, no comma before the "which"...

[DJDD]

In a similar vein to the idea of grammatical rules for English being invented to match the rules of Latin...

I heard recently on one of the ABC radio stations, so my source is not definitive, that Samuel Johnson, the creator of the dictionary, only included words in his dictionary if they had been written somewhere, even if the words were in common use by the illiterate masses. This meant that a large portion of our English language, spoken by the illiterate masses, was not included in the dictionary and lost to antiquity.

a shame, really...

[rat156]

You know what I really hate, you know...

That part of the illiterate masses speech could be removed, I wouldn't mind at all.

I also hate that my spell checker constantly underlines anything I write with "ise" in it. It even did it then when I put quotes around it. I am told that if I install the correct dictionary it won't do it, but I told it what country I live in, surely it can work it out for itself. Webster should have been shot at birth.

My other pet hates about the misuse of the English language;

• everythink (shudder) or nothink (although if you split it at just the right place...)
• the replacement of "ph" with "f" (I had an interesting conversation with some US colleagues, the upshot of which was when they start spelling phosphorous with two "f's" I'll spell sulphur with one (yes, I'm a chemist, that's the sort of banter we have))
• de-planing (meaning disembarking an airplane)

That's enough for now, it is making me ill.

Cheers
Stuart

[mithrandir (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by DJDD

...
There are some grammatical standards we should adhere to (the use of the apostrophe is a good example); however, I also realise that grammar changes, and has changed, over the centuries.
...

OK, Everyone go out and buy your own copy of:

"The Little Green Grammar Book"
Mark Tredinnick
ISBN 978 086840 919 1
UNSW Press

"... No matter what you write (novels, poems,papers, reports, letters to the council, instructions, emails, blogs, wine labels or Christmas cards), this fuss-free book of grammar will help you say what you mean to say neatly and unmistakably."

There will be a test later.

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

I'm with you Stuart,

Those dang Americans, one thing that has always bugged me is that they seem to change words either just to suit themselves, or make them easier to spell, such as colo(u)r, rumo(u)r etc and the worst one of all...........Aluminum! Where has the second i gone?

You cannot just REMOVE a letter from a Chemical name in the periodic table for convenience! Or perhaps Al-oo-min-ee-um is too hard to pronounce? I don't know.

Gosh Darn it!

Chris

[MrB (Simon)]

I read somewhere(moan) that the etymology of Aluminium is infact in their favour.
Can't remember where though so Wikipedia's listing should suffice for now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#Etymology

Edit: Can't believe I'm batting for the Americans!
Think I'll start using Alumium from now on

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Originally Posted by MrB

I read somewhere(moan) that the etymology of Aluminium is infact in their favour.
Can't remember where though so Wikipedia's listing should suffice for now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium#Etymology

Edit: Can't believe I'm batting for the Americans!
Think I'll start using Alumium from now on

You sure you are going to use Alumium Simon?

Alumium, or Aluminum? Your choice I spose, or did you mean that? ie Simon says "Alumium", so now we spell it that way?

Cheers

Chris

p.s. I suppose that because its in Wikipedia, it's got to be true....hmmmm?

[MrB (Simon)]

Yeah I'm using Alumium lol.

I originaly read about the etymology somewhere else, some time ago, not on wikipedia.

Oh, and put your hands on your head

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

No! you didn't say "Simon says - put your hands on your head", so NO, I WON'T ner ne ner ne ner ner!

tee hee

Chris

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Oh, and by the way, I have just trademarked and registered the letter A as the new name I have for Aluminium, so every time someone uses the letter A or a, I will get a royalty.

I thought if you can have Alumium (20c for you) then every A is MINE!

Alum-etc was just too hard to say, so A it is from.....................NOW!

I have spoken (or written to be more precise)

Heed my words!

Chris

[MrB (Simon)]

In th-t c-se, I'll be removing the '-' from '-lumium'.
No roy-lties from me!
H-h-h-!

[ngcles]

Hi All,

I'd just like to add here how much I've enjoyed this thread -- no matter what your opinion is it has been fun to read. One of the best things about it is that it is almost impossible to go off topic ...

Originally Posted by Screwdriverone

Uh-Oh, I think Jen just passed out!

Yes, I've been waiting patiently for our "Queen of the Emoticons" to take the proffered bait, but not yet it seems [please insert "tongue-in-cheek emoticon here].

Originally Posted by rat156

You know what I really hate, you know...

My other pet hates about the misuse of the English language;

• everythink (shudder) or nothink (although if you split it at just the right place...)
• the replacement of "ph" with "f" (I had an interesting conversation with some US colleagues, the upshot of which was when they start spelling phosphorous with two "f's" I'll spell sulphur with one (yes, I'm a chemist, that's the sort of banter we have))
• de-planing (meaning disembarking an airplane)

That's enough for now, it is making me ill.

Agree. In my books there is one even worse ... instead of "ask" or "asked" we hear "arks" or "arksed" (arxed??) [Insert teeth grinding emoticon here]

Grrrrr ...

Originally Posted by DJDD

Bit of a vexed topic...

I have a few pet peeves (overuse of commas, for instance) but I try not to let them ruin any friendships. On the other hand, I probably overuse ellipses (ellipsi?) and parentheses...which must drive people crazy! oh no, no comma before the "which"...

Plead guilty also yer honour !! If Jen promises to limit emoticons to one per post, I'll also limit myself to one set of parentheses and one ellipsis per post. C'mon Jen, wanna play?

More seriously, someone mentioned in passing "Brave New World" somewhere above and that only made me think of the George Orwell novel "Nineteen Eighty Four" -- and the subject of "newspeak". If you haven't read it at all or at least not lately take a peek and you will see the consequences of dumbing down language.

If concepts don't have words to describe them and a structure (grammar) within which to set it, an idea cannot be properly communicated and is difficult to even think. A full language provides more room to think and to convey ideas to others without ambiguity and less chance of mistake. It promotes wider thought and imagination -- and its fun!


Best to all for your entertaining and well thought out contributions,

Les D

[DJDD]

Originally Posted by mithrandir

OK, Everyone go out and buy your own copy of:

"The Little Green Grammar Book"
Mark Tredinnick
ISBN 978 086840 919 1
UNSW Press

"... No matter what you write (novels, poems,papers, reports, letters to the council, instructions, emails, blogs, wine labels or Christmas cards), this fuss-free book of grammar will help you say what you mean to say neatly and unmistakably."

There will be a test later.

hey, thanks. Is the author an Australian? published by UNSW Press so there should be no "ize's"- realize, capitalize, prosthelytize...

I like reading books like this- it may satisfy my inner pedant...