Is spelling old fashioned?

[bojan]

Originally Posted by FredSnerd

Well you might want to ask some teaching professionals about that style of teaching method. I think most people would be very reluctant to be taught by a method by which a lecturer can disseminate ones work to peers in the way suggested.

Well.. that is exactly why we have so poor educational situation here in Australia, as described by others earlier.
BTW, a responsible teacher will NEVER ridicule students because of their lack of knowledge.. She/he will use peers to show how not to do things.
Also, this way of education certainly promotes the team work.
At least, this was how I was educated.

And I do think I missed anything, and neither were my peers.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by FredSnerd

And if it was your work and your children's work that the lecturer could shared with others whenever he chose, including for the purposes of ridicule that would be ok too?

Lecturers don't, as a part of normal policy, share other people's work with anyone, except in cases of sheer exasperation, when those people who are submitting work are so lame and hopeless that it's a wonder they even passed through high school with enough basic skills to even function as a citizen in society.

How would you feel if you, as a lecturer at an University, had to spend most of a semester, or even a whole year, teaching people how to read and write properly even before you could get onto teaching the work that was required of them to learn?? I've seen it happen and I cant tell you they were not happy about it, at all.

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Originally Posted by bojan

Your point is bit stretched..
But yes.
If it is my work, it is entirely my fault if I did it wrong.
As for my children (one daughter actually.. and she is math teacher at high school at the moment), I am (was) protective.. but only if the situation she found herself in was not her fault.

I dont understand your reasoning. Why are you talking about "fault". I give my teacher a paper so he can teach me not so he can punish me. If I get something wrong in an effort to learn am I "at fault" deserving of punishment or am I engaged in the process of learning. You might want to put this senario to your teacher daughter and ask her what she thinks about a teacher giving other student's work to other students for the express purpose of showing them the student's errors.

And lets be honest. You would never have allowed that to happen to your daughter

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by rider

No one has ever stopped language evolving. Language experts predict that international English will sound and have similar diction to Indian/English within the century. To our great-grandchildren our manner of sentence construction and spelling will sound as unintelligible and outlandish as Chips Raferty or Bradman sound to us today.


When we get frustrated with documents that don’t conform to our own way of communicating, it may be well to remember that the average person in Shakespearean days had a vocabulary of 500 words and they were not certain to have the same letters twice in the same manuscript. Today the average person knows 2000+ words and we largely conform to the similar spelling processes.
rider

I wonder if we'll roll our heads about like Indians and sound like them as well (in a comedy sense, that is)

You have to remember, most people in Shakespeare's time never had an education (or exceptionally basic, at the most). People these days are educated and there should be no excuse for someone to be functionally illiterate (except for obvious learning difficulties or other extenuating circumstances).

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Originally Posted by rider

Today the average person knows 2000+ words and we largely conform to the similar spelling processes.
rider

Huh? Anyone should be able to rattle off 2,000 words in five minutes without even thinking about it. LOL!

The average person (minimal to average education) has a working English vocabulary of 12,000 - 20,000 words. Higher-educated people run with 25,000 - 35,000 words without trouble. Shakespeare had a vocabulary (as many sources estimate) approaching 66,000+ words. The English language at the moment contains over 600,000 words (Unabridged Oxford English Dictionary) - and they're all available!

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Lecturers don't, as a part of normal policy, share other people's work with anyone, except in cases of sheer exasperation, when those people who are submitting work are so lame and hopeless that it's a wonder they even passed through high school with enough basic skills to even function as a citizen in society.

How would you feel if you, as a lecturer at an University, had to spend most of a semester, or even a whole year, teaching people how to read and write properly even before you could get onto teaching the work that was required of them to learn?? I've seen it happen and I cant tell you they were not happy about it, at all.

How would I feel. Carl, He should behave like a professional. He's conduct was not professional. Bojan might pretend otherwise becuse he has this chip on his shoulder about political correctness but we know that there are very good reasons that you dont do what that lecturer did.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by FredSnerd

I dont understand your reasoning. Why are you talking about "fault". I give my teacher a paper so he can teach me not so he can punish me. If I get something wrong in an effort to learn am I "at fault" deserving of punishment or am I engaged in the process of learning. You might want to put this senario to your teacher daughter and ask her what she thinks about a teacher giving other student's work to other students for the express purpose of showing them the student's errors.

And lets be honest. You would never have allowed that to happen to your daughter

We obviously do not communicate at the same wavelength
Of course it is my fault, if after all the hours listening to my teacher I write something that is way below acceptable standards.
If I am not capable of comprehending what teacher is talking about, I am in the wrong place.
If I am capable, but careless to try hard enough, don't you think I deserve some sort of punishment? Or the whole thing should be swept under the carpet, as if nothing happened?

I would be very upset as a parent if my daughter failed to do her assignments properly and no-one knew about it, including myself (which WAS the tendency in her school (not always, but it was noticeable)... and which resulted in great shock when she joined much less tolerant environment at university.

Yes, mate, I am against political correctness of the day... It does not help.
Even if/when my own daughter was/is concerned. She learned her lesson and she will not repeat it in the future and this will be to her benefit only.

I will certainly talk to her about this issue and I will let you know what she thinks about the whole thing... But somehow I know what her answer will be

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by FredSnerd

How would I feel. Carl, He should behave like a professional. He's conduct was not professional. Bojan might pretend otherwise becuse he has this chip on his shoulder about political correctness but we know that there are very good reasons that you dont do what that lecturer did.

A professional he may be, but he's also human and sometimes we do things out of frustration and incredulity. In any case, I wasn't going to go around and announce to everyone what I had seen of their work. I'm more discreet than that and in any case, he knew me well enough as a person to know I wouldn't have done that.

His other colleagues had seen some of the work as well. They were of the same opinion as he was. You can't expect them to teach people like that. It's not their job to "hand rear" people who can't competently do the work because their basic skills are woefully inadequate to the task at hand. That's supposed to be the job of their school teachers, many of whom I might add are just as bad as the students they're supposedly teaching.

If I was to have seen their work anyway, if they had've shown me themselves, I would've told them to go back to school myself and I may have resorted to using a few expletives in describing the standard of their scrawl.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by FredSnerd

Bojan might pretend otherwise becuse he has this chip on his shoulder about political correctness......

OK, lets not be too personal here.
I am not pretending about anything.
I just voiced one of my principles here. And I intend to observe it in the future.

[matt]

I'm pretty much of the same opinion as Chris (Omaroo).

I believe correct spelling very important and equally so grammar.

I work in the 'communication' industry as a writer and newsreader. These things are at the very foundation of how I make a living.

You would be shocked (or possibly not) how many university 'interns' we receive who have appalling spelling and grammar. And these are not first or even second year journalism students, but often those students within weeks of graduating! Some have even graduated.

It won't come as a surprise then when I tell you I've not seen one of them employed by our newsroom in the 2 years I've been here. Not even on a casual basis.

This is where the argument that correct spelling and grammar "doesn't matter", or is unimportant, breaks down. It certainly matters to these young people who cannot crack a job because their English skills are not up to snuff. These people are simply let down by a system which doesn't prepare them in a most fundamental area of their educations.

I blame their teachers, and I make no apology for that comment.

I'm sick of hearing teachers bleet on about how unimportant correct spelling and grammar is, when they themselves can't spell or construct a proper sentence. That just seems a little too convenient and self-serving, in my opinion.

I blame the 'dumbing down' of our teachers. I was witness to when the rot began in the mid 80s, when the writing was on the wall that a crisis in teacher numbers was looming large. What did the government of the day do, in its infinite wisdom? Did it make the profession more attractive by upping teacher's pay packets and improving their conditions?

Hell no!!!! It simply lowered the bar to let more people into the ranks. The Tertiary Entrance Rank became so pitifully low it was possible to study teaching with barely a pass mark at the HSC (NSW).

And more than 20 years later we are reaping the harvest.

I could go on....but I won't. It's too easy to offend and that's not my intention.

The point is: spelling and good grammar matters....at least to me. I must admit, though, I relax my attitude when it comes to what I read and post on a forum such as this.

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Originally Posted by bojan

We obviously do not communicate at the same wavelength
Of course it is my fault, if after all the hours listening to my teacher I write something that is way below acceptable standards.
If I am not capable of comprehending what teacher is talking about, I am in the wrong place.
If I am capable, but careless to try hard enough, don't you think I deserve some sort of punishment? Or the whole thing should be swept under the carpet, as if nothing happened?

I would be very upset as a parent if my daughter failed to do her assignments properly and no-one knew about it, including myself (which WAS the tendency in her school (not always, but it was noticeable)... and which resulted in great shock when she joined much less tolerant environment at university.

Yes, mate, I am against political correctness of the day... It does not help.
Even if/when my own daughter was/is concerned. She learned her lesson and she will not repeat it in the future and this will be to her benefit only.

I will certainly talk to her about this issue and I will let you know what she thinks about the whole thing... But somehow I know what her answer will be

Ohhh. No you're a bit too hard for me. And your senario is all too black and white. Bad student v good teacher, no hoper student v good teacher. What about wants to learn student but just isnt catching on for the moment and needs help. I dont think punishment is going to help esp in this last senario.

Also your bluring quite a few things together and its not helpful. Parents right to know how their children are progressing and students being shown other students work for to display their errors. No correlation I'm affriad.

I think I know where you're comming from with this political correctness thing. You dont think our betters treat us harshly enough and were all getting away with murder.

More punishment thats what the people need

[bojan]

Originally Posted by FredSnerd

Parents right to know how their children are progressing and students being shown other students work for to display their errors. No correlation I'm affriad.

Education it a team effort, and it includes parents, teachers and peers, you like it or not.

And you do not know where I am coming from, you are only guessing..
Because our communication is not accurate (see my previous posts for definition of accuracy - it is not explicit though.. it is rather embedded in text), your guess is most probably very wrong

But, who am I to judge...

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by FredSnerd

What I think is wonderful about this thread is that I can make as many spelling and grammatical errors as I like and still be consistent with my position, yet those on the other side of the debate have to be very carful and lets be frank, there have been quite a few spelling and grammatical errors emanating from that side of the debate. Without meaniong to sound too smug I think in many ways it makes the point.

Sorry I'm bored this morning and this thread just so happens to deal with a pet subject of mine so hope I'm not offending anyone too much.

Believing that spelling and grammar are important is not the same as saying one gets it right all the time. I think driving well is important but I still make mistakes. I also occassionally make mistakes at work. The point is, if you try you will likely be right most of the time.

[ngcles]

Hi Trevor & All,

To those "defenders of the faith" out there -- I'm with you!

My spelling and grammar are infrequently perfect first or second run through, but I do think it important to at least try and get it right so that you are clearly understood. To repeat, I am very much a "sinner" and a poor typist to boot, but one who at least tries to be penitent and right his wrongs.

I appreciate it can be difficult to see errors in your own document. When we proof-read, we tend to read what we meant to say rather than what is written on the paper (or screen). But "Rafferty's-Rules" is in reality "no-rules"; a one-way road to confusion. This is not intended as a racist comment, please don't take it that way but if we're not careful, we will all end up writing and speaking "Chinglish" style.

While I'm on the topic, one of the worst areas of degradation to our written language is the apostrophe ( ' ). The rules aren't that hard to learn and apply. Have a go at putting an apostrophe in the correct place today. Never know, you might even come to love 'em!

English is one of the most widely spoken and written languages in the world and almost certainly the most common "second language". We should be on our guard that its beautiful rules (even if sometimes a tad absurd) are cherished forever -- for clarity, precision and dare I say it, for their own sake.

Perhaps emoticons would be less used on this forum and the internet generally if our written English more clearly and precisely said what we wanted it to convey -- so there was no ambiguity or mistaken shade of meaning?

Maybe the need for emoticons is a symptom of this disease? Are they the only way we can make sure our thoughts and ideas are not misunderstood?

Food for thought!


Best,

Les D

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Spelling and grammar amongst today's youth is atrocious. This is the result of a combination of poor teaching, poor parental discipline and interest in their child's education, peer pressure, and idiotic habits that we derive from the US of A.

Dave

[Barrykgerdes]

Being able to spell correctly is is not old fashioned. It is an extremely valuable aid in interpreting the written word. The written word is the basis if knowledge and knowledge is the biggest asset one can have.
Next most important is grammar which is also becoming lax in modern society. Correct grammar can remove ambiguities in the written word which also helps in gaining knowledge.

After these language attributes mathmatics is the next most important attribute to be competent in. If you can't put two and two together you will soon become the subject of ridicule.

Barry

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Well I started today with the express purpose of achieving so much and instead spent most of my time on this thread and got nothing of my other work done. Only myself to blame I suppose but I have to say its been a real eye opener. I say that because I honestly had no idea that sooo many people felt this way. But I have to say it still hasn’t changed my mind and when I see the different and creative ways people express themselves now days I’m not personally unhappy with the direction its taking.


For those of you who have never seen this before you might find it facinating as I did.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL9Wu2kWwSY



Regards

[matt]

We need to differentiate between "creatively expressing oneself", which possibly rests within the arts, and the correct application of spelling and grammar.

It is perhaps this confusion which is at the heart of our debate/misunderstanding.

Creative expression is by its very definition a wholly subjective pursuit where breaking the rules is to encouraged and admired, whereas correct application of the English language has some very core rules and regulations which must be obeyed.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by bojan

I will certainly talk to her about this issue and I will let you know what she thinks about the whole thing... But somehow I know what her answer will be

OK, I talked to my daughter - teacher...
and I was wrong in my assumptions... she did not support my line of thinking (showing the atrocious work of bad student to his/her peers as an example of how not to do things).
She rather expressed very similar opinion as yours, Claude, as this to be very unprofessional conduct.
Of course, the things in life are never black or white, I appreciate this, but I still think that "my way" might have some merits in certain circumstances
Perhaps as a last resort?

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Originally Posted by bojan

OK, I talk to my daughter - teacher...
and I was wrong in my assumptions... she did not support my line of thinking (showing the atrocious work of bad student to his/her peers as an example of how not to do things).
She rather expressed very similar opinion as yours, Claude, as this to be very unprofessional conduct.
Of course, the things in life are never black or white, I appreciate this, but I still think that "my way" might have some merits in certain circumstances

Thanks for sharing your daughter's view. It was good of you. You didnt have to.

All the best to you