A simple math question.

[xelasnave]

As many of you know I views about gravity.
I have thought of possible ways to present the notion using math.
I constructed a thought experiment here it is.
We are in a sphere in the remotest part in space.. in one of those voids will do...size of sphere lets make it S or better still 300,000 klms in diameter.
In our sphere we have many tiny windows that alow observation of energy and or particles coming from one tradjectory passing thru the center of the sphere... I use this window approach to approximately quantify the number of possible tragectories... the number of windows will give us an approximate number probably short of the reality but at this point it offers a starting point.
It is easy to work out the number of "windows" on this basis.
Next I wondered what energy or particles we could expect to observe on one tradgectory... and this could be a range from the lowest possible energy that we could measure a mid range and a high range.
The idea being that at the center of our sphere we could estimate what energy or particles will pass by... and then multiply our energy finding by the number of windows to show what energy is "available" or passes the point...
This approach is similar to the way Hershel worked out the Sun's energy output... he imagined a sphere with a diameter of the Earth's orbit..he them used a "window" in the form of a block of ice to calculate the energy that reached that "window" worked out how many window he could get in his huge sphere and multiplied the energy finding on the ice window to get an approximate energy output from the Sun.
What I suggest is sort of the reverse.
I need a list of all the energies etc we could expect but the principle could start with using say just the energies expected from say nuetrinos that would pass by.
I hope I have been clear enough for this to be understood sorry to be so hasty.
alex

[renormalised (Carl)]

That's not going to tell you much of anything about gravity, but what it will tell you is how much radiation is passing through every square metre of the surface of the sphere....assuming your "windows" are 1m^2 in size.

Now you have the problem of capturing all the possible wavelengths of radiation passing through those "windows" and identifying each wavelength. You can name your numbers here....there's literally billions of possible wavelengths. You have to be more specific about what you're trying to find.

[rally]

Alex,

I think to make this thought experiment work you would also need to know (or approximate) the flux density.
That is how many of your 'particles' are travelling in a given direction over a specified period of time.
Then, in terms of the energy you want to calculate, not all of these particles could ever be made to give up all or any of their energy.
Most neutrinos will travel unhindered through a block of solid lead 1,000 light years thick !

Rally

[renormalised (Carl)]

If you want the simple formula for calculating flux, here it is...

F = L/4piR^2....where F=flux, L=Luminosity of the source, R=radius of the sphere through which the flux is passing.

[xelasnave]

Thank you Carl for considering and repling to my post I rezally do appreciate you taking the time to do so.

My answer is finially.. I am trying to quantify all the energies that pass by or thru a single point in remote space.
My idea that gravity works somewhat like a pressure system due to the many particles etc that pass by a point (Le Sages original idea)
I felt that if one trajectorty could be quantified we coulkd multiply its energy level by the number of tragecoties available and consider if there could be enough energy to somehow "push".
If I could work out a ruff answer I could maybe relate it to the slowing of the pioneer craft and maybe (very ambitious but its a plan) work out the rate the pioneer will slow in the future and make a math based prediction of the rate of slowing ...all in an effort to support the LeSage approach to gravity...
alex
Thanks again.
alex

[xelasnave]

Thank you Rally for your input I hope all is wonderful in your Universe.
I thought the flow from one dirrection could be assumed to be the same as the flow from the exact opposite direction...
in otherwords E should equal E or push from one side of the Universe should equal the push from the other side of the Universe..
P=P
and of course P = E ...in an effort to use real science of course
alex

alex

[renormalised (Carl)]

Essentially, you want the flux of gravitons passing any particular unit area of your sphere. The equation for that I wrote in my last reply. However, what you will have to do here is knowing what the flux is, it will have to be multiplied by the varying wavelengths (hence energies) of all the gravitons passing through that unit area, because not all gravitons will have the same energies or wavelengths.

Big problem here....we don't know what the wavelengths for a graviton will be (except as a theoretical exercise) because we've never seen them in real life. We assume they may exist based on the outcomes of the Standard Model of Particle Physics and on QM models.

Then you have to explain why gravitons "push". You have to come up with the observational evidence and theoretical modeling which will support this contention and refute what is already known.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Thank you Rally for your input I hope all is wonderful in your Universe.
I thought the flow from one dirrection could be assumed to be the same as the flow from the exact opposite direction...
in otherwords E should equal E or push from one side of the Universe should equal the push from the other side of the Universe..
P=P
and of course P = E ...in an effort to use real science of course
alex

alex

It won't work like that simply because you will have to have a completely homogeneous universe in order to have equal amounts of push from either side. That being the case, all matter would have to be spread equally in all directions and that would mean no galaxies, or anything else.

This has to be done on a completely different scale here, Alex. You need to start with the fundamental equations for your theory and then apply them to larger and larger systems, all along checking that your equations obey the laws of physics as they are known. Even if they modify those laws in the long run, they have to have some basis in the facts as they're known. Unless, of course, it's something coming completely out of "left field" which changes everything. But then it would have to be a work of genius, and be something that completely turns everything on it's head whilst satisfying every observation and theoretical assumption made.

[sjastro]

Alex,

(1) Do you want to know the individual energies of each particle or as expressed in previous posts as a flux?

(2) Do all these particles have the same mass? (I don't need to know actual mass value.)

Steven

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Essentially, you want the flux of gravitons passing any particular unit area of your sphere. The equation for that I wrote in my last reply. However, what you will have to do here is knowing what the flux is, it will have to be multiplied by the varying wavelengths (hence energies) of all the gravitons passing through that unit area, because not all gravitons will have the same energies or wavelengths.

Big problem here....we don't know what the wavelengths for a graviton will be (except as a theoretical exercise) because we've never seen them in real life. We assume they may exist based on the outcomes of the Standard Model of Particle Physics and on QM models.

Then you have to explain why gravitons "push". You have to come up with the observational evidence and theoretical modeling which will support this contention and refute what is already known.

Thanks again Carl
I cant explain why anything would push I guess but I can not come close in an effort to expalin how attraction could work either I opt for push as I think it would be a one way message whereas attraction would seem to require a "message" and a "reply".

I dont seek to refute what is already known as I dont know all that is already known.
I have a simplistic view of how it may be ..I see "space time" as a grid and that there must be "something" that "bends" the grid and so my interest in what may be available in the physical.

I had given up on the gravity stuff but when Ron started the site I felt bound to keep going although in truth I have done little for the site he built and lost a bit of interest when we got our "Australias Leading Time Detective" as I felt that took us into a nutty realm... but in an effort to be oppen mined I did not offer any objection to his contributions even though the ideas I felt were beyond support.
I could not decry his input given my wild ideas and realise that I will be seen as similar given the off the wall ideas on gravity and my theory (idea) on everything.
I just want to know how everything works and how it works and no matter how much I read I find I end up with more questions when I started... a point covered yesterday.
I live in hope that before I pass away I will have all the answers as there probably wont be any for me when I am dead.

Rally mentioned the "strike rate" of nutrinos.

I suspect they probably are of a number we could reasonably consider for human purposes as infinite and even these would do nicely for the push concept..
I know they have vats of laundry fluid undergroud trying to see the odd one pass by as part of the dark matter investigations.

Thier limited interaction is what I need for the push gravity idea but no doubt they would not be exclusive.

Maybe I am hinting at the physical makeup of dark matter which I constantly write off as an invention to support the notion of, in my view, the mythical force of attraction.

And yes I have been living on the boat alone and scarring myself with ventures out to sea in contemplation of the intended trip up the coast... AND so sitting there when at anchor gives me more time to think maybe than is healty.

thanks again... it would appear that the list of questions from one question just keeps on growing.

alex
alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by renormalised

It won't work like that simply because you will have to have a completely homogeneous universe in order to have equal amounts of push from either side. That being the case, all matter would have to be spread equally in all directions and that would mean no galaxies, or anything else.

This has to be done on a completely different scale here, Alex. You need to start with the fundamental equations for your theory and then apply them to larger and larger systems, all along checking that your equations obey the laws of physics as they are known. Even if they modify those laws in the long run, they have to have some basis in the facts as they're known. Unless, of course, it's something coming completely out of "left field" which changes everything. But then it would have to be a work of genius, and be something that completely turns everything on it's head whilst satisfying every observation and theoretical assumption made.

I can do that
I offer in support of my genius status the fact that many who hold the status of genius are to others complete nutters and if there is one thing I feel confident about is I have the nutter side well in place.
AND I get the inspiration part as well but when it comes to the 90% perspiration I cant provide it as the brain is almost past its use by date you see.

The push and shielding effect of even the most smallest bits of matter would see matter move toward other matter because the area between them has less "stuff" due to a shielding effect on the passing flow and each body would seek to move to the place of least resistence...

Alex

[renormalised (Carl)]

I think the main problem here is you're trying to get LeSage's ideas to work, by modifying them somehow to fit in with current theory or a modification thereof, but I don't think it's going to work. Just in casually reading what's on the net, there are too many objections and problems to LeSage's ideas for them to work. You have both thermodynamic and simple physical problems which just don't add up, and can't be explained away.

I'm not saying you shouldn't try, but in order to be able to do this, you're going to need a pretty damn good grounding in and understanding of higher mathematics. Plus, a very vivid imagination and the ability to be able to put that to numbers. In essence, to be able to visualise the equations needed to prove your ideas as pictures of reality.

[renormalised (Carl)]

The push and shielding effect of even the most smallest bits of matter would see matter move toward other matter because the area between them has less "stuff" due to a shielding effect on the passing flow and each body would seek to move to the place of least resistence...

That makes no sense, based just on simple observation. If you have two objects "pushing" on one another i.e. there's a force mitigating the push between each of the objects, how can you therefore have an attraction??. You can't have a shielding effect simply because the force of the push must, by definition, be coming from everywhere surrounding each object. There's nowhere for any "shielding" to occur. You are, by invoking a shielding effect, saying that your gravity is essentially a point source effect that is radiated away from the surface of your objects at different intensities, depending on their location, and in a specific direction.

There's absolutely no observational evidence for that, anywhere in physical reality. If that were the case, not only would the universe be littered with all sorts of weird gravitational point sources and anomalies, but nothing would appear as it does. In actual fact, the universe wouldn't exist....it would've collapsed in on itself before it even got started.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by sjastro

Alex,

(1) Do you want to know the individual energies of each particle or as expressed in previous posts as a flux?

(2) Do all these particles have the same mass? (I don't need to know actual mass value.)

Steven

Thanks Steven for your consideration of this matter.

I guess I can answer both questions this way.
I want to reasonably quantify what physical intereractions are possible at a point..any point.
I doubt if all particles will have the same mass nor will all "energies" have the same energy and my effort is really to quantify what may be available to push and bend the space time grid... I dont know enough as you know and I appologise for not being able to express my approach and intention with more detail... but on the up side as I said I have a longer list of questions to think about.

I suppose to a degree if we take open space as the place for our sphere it would be reasonable to expect a flow of energy and particles from all directions..if the flow is diminished it will be primarily because there is something in the way of this flow... and so the flow will bend the space time grid (I visualise) to the "something" ...and so I hope to relate the idea to GR rather than say GR is a waste of time because I really dont think that... but I get preoccupied with how things work on a physical level .. I dont understand GR very well but It seems it claims no force is responsible for its genius but I wonder about what forces are at play.. GR I think does not rely on attraction or push whereas I seek the reason space behaves in the way we observe...
I felt space was a push environment and that is why I predicted the pioneer would slow up as really in effect once outside the heliosphere they are greatly exposed to "push" from all sides and that should finally have the effect of slowing them ..I have not looked at them for a while or if they still get signals as to where they are but the last time I looked they were slowing... as I expected given my views on the "pressure" of the open space they have moved into.

I thought if I could quantify the pressure even in a limited degree I could maybe suggest how much more they would slow and set the prediction to a tune of math support and a point in time where they should be able to be observed at the new slower speed..assuming they are still trackable etc etc.

But in truth it is beyond me I suspect given the quantity of information that must go into making a model of my view.

Also I felt the sphere approach may be able to be modelled on a computer so one could place things like galaxies etc in the model to see if the problem of faster orbital speeds of out lying stars could be solved by a push model... if such a model showed behaviour similar to observations I feel that would give the push universe a little hope..or kill it..which suits me more actually in so far as I could think about somethiing else for a change.

alex

[xelasnave]

A model would not even necissarily need specific quantification of energies mass etc I guess to see if a computer model would work ..the avaialable energies etc at a point in open space would be a constant and the variable could be it ability to interact with matter and even that could be rounded off to see if such a model could produce faster star orbits for the outlying stars. I have a model in my head so to speak and "see" how an external flow would solve the faster star issue very simply and remove the need of dark matter or acknowledge that its there and it works via a push and shielding system.
I have to go now but I will come back later when I am on the boat..the 3g or next g whatever wireless works on board so I have a net link on board now..fantastic really... and being able to see google earth when considering the next port is magic..not that I have gone to another port yet...
alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by renormalised

That makes no sense, based just on simple observation. If you have two objects "pushing" on one another i.e. there's a force mitigating the push between each of the objects, how can you therefore have an attraction??. You can't have a shielding effect simply because the force of the push must, by definition, be coming from everywhere surrounding each object. There's nowhere for any "shielding" to occur. You are, by invoking a shielding effect, saying that your gravity is essentially a point source effect that is radiated away from the surface of your objects at different intensities, depending on their location, and in a specific direction.

There's absolutely no observational evidence for that, anywhere in physical reality. If that were the case, not only would the universe be littered with all sorts of weird gravitational point sources and anomalies, but nothing would appear as it does. In actual fact, the universe wouldn't exist....it would've collapsed in on itself before it even got started.

Its is not the objects that push Carl it is all of space that pushes.

I will try to explain how I see it.

If the push comes from everywhere as I suspect then any two objects will shield each other..they dont push each other the push is all over but the push will be shielded by each object on the other...draw two circles and lines coming from the edge of the page in fact lines everywhere but if the line meets either circle stop it there..what you will draw will show a region between the two circles that has less lines... it is not a vacuum but that is a simple way to visualise the effect I suggest..the shielded regions will have less flow and the matter will tend to move there.. in a more or less choice of taking the path of less resistence.

Sorry that I cant offer a more descriptive and graspable view but forget entirely that each object pushes or interacts with the other... it is space its flow (and lack of it in the shielded region) that pushes them together.
ANyways I have to go and thank you all very much for your tolerance, understanding and wonderfully helpful input...

alex
alex

[xelasnave]

My observational evidence ... If galaxies were not in a push environment they would simply fly apart and I think others call that energy "dark energy" but upon my understanding that view is accepted..well its not my view that is accepted it is the view put forward on dark energy ..or so I believe.
I think the Corona of the Sun is produced from the interaction off the outflow of the Sun meeting the flow coming in ... it couls explain where all the energy comes from that makes the Corona hotter.. Bojan did say why this wont work but I cant recall why the idea was a dude..but I think it sounds reasonable..at least I offer where the extra energy comes from ...
I think the border we call the heliosphere may well be similar.. the energy out is met again with energy coming in...and you have to stand well back to see this but drawings along the lines suggested may offer the idea up better than I can in text.
I feel the fault is mine is describing things.

alex

[renormalised (Carl)]

Just having a quick think here....your "push" gravity between two "particles" in this instance (and in all instances) is in violation of the 3rd Law of Thermodynamics i.e. the order of a system, over time, will collapse into complete randomness...the entropy of the system increases over time.

In which case, the ordered system of a gravity "shield" would collapse and the random push of the "ultramundane particles" would dominate. The shielding requires that an ordered system of "less gravity or less ultramundane particles" be present between the two objects and is sustainable long enough for those particles to attract one another. Just through simple energy exchange between the particles and the radiation of that energy to their surroundings, the entropy in the gap would increase....and if given LeSage's quoted speed for these particles, almost instantly. There'd be no shielding effect that would last long enough to attract particles together. In this case, the universe would fly apart.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Its is not the objects that push Carl it is all of space that pushes.

I will try to explain how I see it.

If the push comes from everywhere as I suspect then any two objects will shield each other..they dont push each other the push is all over but the push will be shielded by each object on the other...draw two circles and lines coming from the edge of the page in fact lines everywhere but if the line meets either circle stop it there..what you will draw will show a region between the two circles that has less lines... it is not a vacuum but that is a simple way to visualise the effect I suggest..the shielded regions will have less flow and the matter will tend to move there.. in a more or less choice of taking the path of less resistence.

Sorry that I cant offer a more descriptive and graspable view but forget entirely that each object pushes or interacts with the other... it is space its flow (and lack of it in the shielded region) that pushes them together.
ANyways I have to go and thank you all very much for your tolerance, understanding and wonderfully helpful input...

alex
alex

I know what you're trying to say, Alex, but it has to work on the particles as well as space itself. Something must be the force carrier in this instance. What you're trying to say is that spacetime flows around an object and the area immediately in the "shadow" of that object is the area of low energy/gravity shielding. That occurs around all objects and because of that shielded area, they attract one another. Problem with that is the objects would have to be in very close range of one another for each object's shield to interact and attract one another. Unless the force mitigating particles or the geometric warp of the spacetime field caused by the shielding effect and the flow of spacetime, moved at infinite velocity. In which case, you would get "standing waves" of areas of high gravity immediately preceding an object in the spacetime flow, and areas of low gravity proceeding it. It would also mean that gravity would be highly directional and dependent on the flow direction of spacetime. In actual fact, for it to work, spacetime would have to flow in all directions simultaneously...and that would negate any standing wave or gravity shielding hypothesis.

There's no observational data supporting your conclusions.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

My observational evidence ... If galaxies were not in a push environment they would simply fly apart and I think others call that energy "dark energy" but upon my understanding that view is accepted..well its not my view that is accepted it is the view put forward on dark energy ..or so I believe.
I think the Corona of the Sun is produced from the interaction off the outflow of the Sun meeting the flow coming in ... it couls explain where all the energy comes from that makes the Corona hotter.. Bojan did say why this wont work but I cant recall why the idea was a dude..but I think it sounds reasonable..at least I offer where the extra energy comes from ...
I think the border we call the heliosphere may well be similar.. the energy out is met again with energy coming in...and you have to stand well back to see this but drawings along the lines suggested may offer the idea up better than I can in text.
I feel the fault is mine is describing things.

alex

Why would they fly apart?? Just because there's a factor called "dark energy" that is imparting an acceleration effect to spacetime doesn't mean that without a "push" effect they'll scream off into the wide blue yonder. Gravity, as explained perfectly well by Newton and Einstein, does the job nicely and fits (nearly) all the observational evidence that we have. Sure, there are some anomalies with aspects of how gravity works in relation to accelerated motions in the outer reaches of spiral galaxies (and possibly in the case of the Pioneer probes, yet there's been nothing w.r.t. the Voyagers)...and this is where MOND is being proposed...but whether it holds itself will be up to careful observation and theoretical deliberation.

The corona of the Sun is heated by the interactions of magnetic fields with the gases present in the corona. The magnetic fields get twisted by the Sun's differential rotation and the ionised gases in the corona generating their own fields. The magnetic fields reach a point of maximum PE and twisting, then they snap back into their low energy states...the energy thereby being released into the gas and heating it up. There's little or no dampening effect by the gases of the corona on the magnetic fields as the corona gas is exceptionally rarified. That's why it heats up so dramatically.