IIS Almanac - quantification

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Whilst you're of course entitled to it, I think that's a dissapointing view Marcus.

I'm not sure of how many $60, well presented coffee table books you've picked up over the past few years that you could show to your friends and say, "I'm in there - and so are the people I spend time with on IIS". If you want a book that you can "ooohh" and "aaaaah" to, maybe go your favourite book store and spend the same money on a book that is just..well.. another book. There are a plethora of very expensive and beautifully printed and produced titles to choose from, but none will have yours or my images in them. I see the book being bought mostly by the actual image contributors, but I'm positive that there are plenty of other wonderful non-imaging people here on IIS that would love to have a copy as well.

I don't think that there needs to be any other angle -at all. Most people haven't had their photography published before - so here's their chance. There's an enormous sense of pride to see your efforts immortalised on paper, and moreso in a beautiful book. A book like this is just, as Mike has stated before, a visual feast and that's all it's meant to be. It's not the best of - in order. It's better than that.

$60 for what is essentially a very specific and personalised book of the people here and their images is pittance. It really is. The whole point of this is to be able to produce a "thing" that you can pick up, feel, and be proud of. All of the images may not all be the best in the world - but the people who took them and are presenting them in their own book are. We're all doing something unselfish here, by each making the effort to spend time (for no collective profit to speak of), on what is going to be a long and complex exercise to produce something absolutely unique. You can't put a website on your coffee table or on your bookshelf. You can't give a URL to your granddad for his birthday.

probably end up with a committee of people deciding what's in and what's out.

As far as appointing a committee to "decide" who's in and who's out - maybe you've missed the point. There will be no committee and no competition. I'm donating my own time to organise the collection and carry out the design work. Gratis. Free. It's something I love doing, it's something I'm pretty good at, and for the moment I have the spare capacity to do it. These people here are my friends and I'm proud to be able to contribute in my own way to the sense of community we have here.

People will sensibly provide their best or favourite image of their own free will, and will be able to judge whether they want their image in or not based on how they think it may appear next to all the others. There will be no base-line "wow factor" measure. If it's someones' best image then that's what it is. I'm pleased to be able to print it for them as long as its mechanically acceptable for the task - i.e. is of a suitable resolution to support a 200 line screen at the size printed(200mmx200mm). No-one with a "better" image is going to miss out because a lesser image made it in before theirs. The size of the book will be determined by what I recieve, nothing more, nothing less. If the total pages push the price up a bit then we'll probably not have as many people buying. We can't help that other than to try and find the best and cheapest digital printer we can. Thankfully Ben's (a member here) father runs an Indigo digital press, so we're looking good.

So far, the gathering of statistics has shown that we'll probably end up with fifty to sixty imagers contributing this time around - which determines the size and therefore direct cost of production. That's not exactly a "flood" of people that we'd otherwise have to cull from. This isn't about the images perse, it's about the people. There - I've said it again. It's designed to be a collection of images from people who've provided the best they can given their level of experience, money, time and equipment. I've produced images that I'm just as proud of as Peter Ward is of his own. Peters are way better than mine, and would cream mine in a comp, but that doesn't make me any less proud of mine. The book is essentially a snap-shot in time. Those that were here at this particular time and contributed an image will have something they can keep forever. Those that are happy enough to mill about on a website won't.

If anyone prefers not to have one, then that's their own call I guess! Sixty dollars is only a number thats been bandied about in lieu of having real production costs finalised yet. It may be more, it may be less. So far, as of today, seventy seven people have indicated (up front - I suspect more when it becomes available) that they'd buy the book. Six of them would even pay $100 or more. I'm one of them. Thirty eight people have potentially committed to contributing with sixteen more being undecided. That's fifty four. A page each, and a couple of intro pages and an index at the back, that's a sixty page book. That isn't insignificant, and is actually an affordable thing to produce and make available to people. Being short run (maybe hundreds over time), it's a more expensive way of producing printed material if you look at the per unit cost - but at least we'll have it, and as more are required we simply order more in small bundles! To print it traditionally on a sheet-fed offset press we'd never be able to even contemplate it as large print runs would be required in order for a printer to even contemplate printing it - for which someone would have to pay thousands of dollars up-front. It's untenable. We'd be forced to look at impersonal and quite frankly boring websites forever.

[BerrieK]

Originally Posted by marc4darkskies

Anyway, most folks who want to know who's who in the australian astrophotography community will be googling or browsing IIS to find them, and typically those imagers will have a web presence already. So what in this book will make someone want to spend $60+?

Basing content on the altruistic notion of printing anything anyone gives you (because you're afraid of offending someone?) on a first in best dressed basis won't work IMHO.


Cheers, Marcus

My 2cents, for what it is worth; My understanding and 'feel' for this project is that it is not a commercial endeavour aimed at making profit, but rather a book created by and for members of a forum with a common interest. To look at and enjoy, and to share their own passion with family and friends. Not to advertise the who's who in astrophotography. There is a whole wider world out there for that!! Inclusion in order to avoid offence is not an option - inclusion as a valuable member of the forum / group, at whatever level of 'amateur' or otherwise ability they sit at, is essential.

I am not an imager, indeed I can hardly even class myself as a beginner or newby visual user with my basic skills and knowledge; I confess that I have saved many astro pics from the web and indeed pinched from this site, put them on a data card, and have them cycling though on a digital photo frame in my lounge room. Although I understand the points you make Markus, the book is for members to enjoy and be proud of; I would love to be able to show people why I love this hobby in a book that they can hold and feel comprising of images from members of this forum, irrespsective of whether they are award winning images or not; from little things big things grow (or so the song goes anyway), so why not encourage people to start small rather than poo poo beginners.

Kerrie

[end girly rant]

[marc4darkskies (Marcus)]

Originally Posted by Omaroo

Whilst you're of course entitled to it, I think that's a dissapointing view Marcus.

My comments dissappoint you Chris?! I've learned over many years in the corporate environment that opinions are just that - they should be given and received without fear or favour, unemotionally and honestly. I'm merely contributing to a discussion.

My views obviously have a commercial slant and assumed your market was ultimately the wider community. When I look at things like this I think of target market, how to make a product attractive to that market and whether the proportion of that market that might buy your product will cover costs. I see now that this is not particularly relevant to you as you're aiming to produce a keepsake for a handfull of IIS community members who want to see their images in print. You're preaching to the converted so to speak.

Personally, I don't need to see my images in print - that's not why I (or most other people in the IIS community) are in the hobby. I DO want to share my journey though, and my web presence is how I show family and friends (and anyone who stumbles over the site via google or IIS) the beauty of the night sky. Of course I'd be proud (one day) to have an image chosen on merit to be displayed in a commercial publication, but having my friends call me after looking at my web page and say wow what a great picture and then ask me about it is much more fulfilling.

BTW, I print my own images and plaster them all over my walls!! I also give prints away to friends and family who want them.

Good luck with your venture (very sincerely)!

Cheers, Marcus

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

I've learned over many years in the corporate environment that opinions are just that - they should be given and received without fear or favour, unemotionally and honestly. I'm merely contributing to a discussion.

Marcus - there's no commercial slant on this project. Costs are borne by an individual ordering a book - one at a time, as that is the beauty of printing it digitally. There was never (as far as I know) a plan to decide to produce or not produce this thing based on whether we're able to sell it to individuals outside of this small community. Doing it the way we are, no one will ever need to carry a large debt that needs to be recovered - the success of which would hinge on its saleability. If that were the case then commercial sensibilities and considerations would of course have to come into play. Being in the publishing business I understand that better than most. It's tough out there in publishing land right now. If other people that stumble on to IIS see it and wish to order a copy then great - we'd be happy to organise them a copy in the next batch order to the printer.

I had hoped that the discussion over whether it should or should not be produced had long passed. I think we've received enough positive response to be able to make a book.

You've said that you'll not be one of the contributors and that's really OK! It's up to everone to decide that they may or may not want to be involved. We're not discussing whether the time spent on designing and producing a small book might be better spent on a website as that's not what we're trying to do in this instance. If you prefer website presentation for your best image then go for it! I also like your idea of a centralised web repository for the best of the best. Maybe that's something you might want to help put together for everyone.

Thanks for the good luck - it's appreciated!

[marc4darkskies (Marcus)]

Originally Posted by BerrieK

My 2cents, for what it is worth; My understanding and 'feel' for this project is that it is not a commercial endeavour aimed at making profit, but rather a book created by and for members of a forum with a common interest. ...

I knew it was non profit Kerrie. What I wasn't quite understanding is that people would pay $60 to see there own work in print. Also, like I said at the outset, having a directory of australian imagers is not a bad idea at all. I was just wondering how the concept would be carried out without losing money, but Chris seems to have that sussed! I'm happy to contribute as well ... I just don't need to buy the book - I can see who's who by participating in IIS and other forums & sites.

Originally Posted by BerrieK

... I have saved many astro pics from the web and indeed pinched from this site, put them on a data card, and have them cycling though on a digital photo frame in my lounge room. ....

Nice idea - may do that myself!

Originally Posted by BerrieK

... so why not encourage people to start small rather than poo poo beginners.

Waaa? - did someone denegrate beginners in some way?! ... let me at 'em!!! I was one for 35 years - talk about s l o w !!

Cheers, Marcus

[multiweb (Marc)]

Marcus, I reckon you just have to look at it for what it is. No competition, no standard just one of your favorite pics printed in a home made publication along with others. No more no less. It's your choice to be in it or not. I don't care if nobody wants to buy it. They don't have to even look at it. I'd buy a copy straight away even if they just print one.

[Alchemy (Clive)]

better change my vote of uncertain to a yes... that means id buy one too.

i look forward to seeing all the imagers and their gear, im not keen on putting my face on the worldwide web or many of my personal details, but in a limted production among those who i have communicated with for sometime now , its ok.


clive

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Originally Posted by Alchemy

better change my vote of uncertain to a yes... that means id buy one too.

i look forward to seeing all the imagers and their gear, im not keen on putting my face on the worldwide web or many of my personal details, but in a limted production among those who i have communicated with for sometime now , its ok.


clive

LOL! Very good Clive. Welcome aboard!

I'll be asking for two images of everyone - a main image at full size and resoltion, and a second one which can be anything they like - their scope, observatory or mug!

[stephenb (Stephen)]

Just a couple of questions please?

1. Will a "technical lower limit" be set on the applicant? Being a general, community forum which many beginners gravitate to, there will be many beginners who dabble in imaging may not be considered as good as the more popular members on this forum, so will they be allowed to publish something? or will the successful applicants to this book be the regular middle- and upper-level imagers with all the top gear?

2. Have you established approximately how many imagers will be featured?

3. Reading more about the images rather than the actual imagers would be more interesting to the wider community/reader, IMO.

hoo roo,

Stephen

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

So when do we start to inundate you with images Chris?

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Hi Stephen I think that we've probably discussed these before, but that's no prob!

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

Just a couple of questions please?

1. Will a "technical lower limit" be set on the applicant? Being a general, community forum which many beginners gravitate to, there will be many beginners who dabble in imaging may not be considered as good as the more popular members on this forum, so will they be allowed to publish something? or will the successful applicants to this book be the regular middle- and upper-level imagers with all the top gear?

There will be no "lower limit" of any sort applied to the images entered apart from pure mechanical suitability - i.e. resolution must be of a certain level to print properly. I'll advise you on this and how to check for it in due course. There is absolutely no way that people are going to miss out because their images aren't ready for the Malin Awards! LOL We're encouraging imagers of ALL levels to contribute - it certainly isn't a competition! We want the best that YOU can produce given your level of experience and equipment.

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

2. Have you established approximately how many imagers will be featured?

I think that we're looking at around fifty to sixty at this stage. Maybe more if we get people excited enough!

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

3. Reading more about the images rather than the actual imagers would be more interesting to the wider community/reader, IMO.

We'll include the follwing basic information on each imaged object:

Common name, catalog designation, constellation, RA/Dec, magnitude/surface brightness, date/time captured.

Following that, we'll include a brief description of the capture and processing technique, along with a word on the equipment used next to a photo of you/rig or both.

Considering that we're allocating one page per imager, we want to keep it tidy and uncluttered.

Originally Posted by glenluceskies

hoo roo,

Stephen

Hoo Roo!

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

So when do we start to inundate you with images Chris?

Things are progressing well Jeanette I'd say sooner than later. We just need to establish some ground rules regarding mechanical quality control, and a method of collection. Stay tuned!

[Octane (Humayun)]

I'll just add that if anyone hasn't seen what a photo looks like printed in a high-quality book, they don't know what they're missing out on. Especially if it's /your/ own hard work. Beginner or advanced -- there's nothing like holding the actual final destination artifact and enjoying it for what it is, a work of art. Let's face it, viewing images on screen is pretty crap as it is totally dependent on the resolution of your screen and its ability to convey colours that are true to life.

I get a lot of joy out of seeing my own images (landscape/astro) in large format print and can't wait to see what they (along with everyone else's) look like in this book.

Thank you so much Chris for going to all the trouble to organise this. Two Megan Fox thumbs.

Regards,
Humayun

[Tandum (Robin)]

Chris, I have an unlimited website on a huge pipe with FTP access if needed. After reading Humayun's input I would'nt mind throwing in an image as well.

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Cheers Robin - we'll keep that in mind, thanks!

[Phil]

So i will be in on this where do we send the image. Sounds like a great idea.
Phil

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Stay tuned Phil - details will be posted in a new thread.

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

OK everyone - an announcement is coming in the next couple of days. I'm going to put together a description of how I'll need submitted images formatted, what sizes they'll need to be and how you'll get them to me for pagination. For those that already know how to format material to support a 200-line screen 4-colour press - the books trim dimensions will be 200x200 - so go from there. For those that don't, I'll explain in simple language over the next couple of days.

Looks like we're committing to an 80-pager, and I think you'll be happy with the price when we announce it. That will be announced soon, and Mike will go into how that side of it is going to work. It will be soft cover (250gsm heavy stock) and 120gsm matte stock inside. One page each - with a main image and sub image being whatever you like - either yourself, your rig or both. This will be accompanied by a short blurb (we'll set a word limit) describing the image, the basic equipment and process and a little on yourself/rig.

Looks like we're off!

[RobF (Rob)]

Can't wait to hear more. Thanks Chris for investing so much time and thought in this baby. I'm enjoying the technical descriptions of what's required to get something like this off the ground too. Way outside my usual line or work.

[Big Dave (Dave)]

Thanks for putting in the effort Cris.