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  #21  
Old 28-05-2009, 05:23 PM
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Insane Climber (Jason)
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I have found this discussion very usefull. Even though i know very little, I now know a lot more than i did. Thanks everyone.

Clear sky's

Jas


It's better to look like an idiot than to be one.
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  #22  
Old 29-05-2009, 09:34 PM
taxman (Matt)
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Imagine two stars orbiting each other. A binary i think you call it. If a third star was orbiting the two, would it orbit the biggest star or would it orbit the center of mass of the two stars.
Actually, the third star would orbit neither of those options - it would orbit the centre of mass of all three stars. But depending on the mass of each of the stars and their angular velocity, that centre could be anywhere in the space enclosed by the three stars - even at the centre of one of the stars themselves.

Adding a million stars of varying mass into the equation makes it muddier - the centre of mass could be anywhere at all and only by observing from outside the system could an estimation be made where the centre is.

However, it would be unlikely the centre of such a system would be dark as there would be lots of stars with low angular velocities and/or mass orbiting a very short distance from the centre of gravity of the system.

Unless there was a large, super-heavy, unobservable object at the centre sucking away these "rogue" stars, making them in turn unobservable, our observations of a hole in the centre of galaxies would be the exception instead of the norm.
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  #23  
Old 29-05-2009, 09:54 PM
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hickny (Peter)
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Astronomy magazine has a recent article on Black Holes...
http://www.astronomy.com/asy/default.aspx?c=a&id=8308
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  #24  
Old 29-05-2009, 11:00 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Schwarzschild

Read a fair bit on the guy over the last year or so .. I read Albert wrote to thank him on the publication of his paper regarding his solutions to the field equations einstein published the previous year ..
While Karl could never know the significance of his publication
..Dieing shortly after , aside whether you believe a black hole exists or not , the mathamatical solution to show they VERY much can ..hasn't really been disputed for over 90 years .

Last edited by GrahamL; 30-05-2009 at 02:13 AM.
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  #25  
Old 30-05-2009, 01:05 PM
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There is a slight problem with your theory...... It still is based on teh physics of 3 solar masses and has to obey the physics related to 3 solar masses.

When orbiting objects are observed to obey rotational dynamics related to 1000+ solar masses and there are not 1000 solar masses of stars actually observed in the system what then? The observational evidence outweighs your theory somewhat. You may not beleive in Black Holes but how do you account for the lack of observable mass? Localised Dark Matter perhaps....
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  #26  
Old 30-05-2009, 07:02 PM
dpastern (Dave Pastern)
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Einstein pretty much proved that Newtons laws of gravity weren't wholly accurate. For the planets they're mostly OK, but not totally accurate. Einsteins theories have been proven many times to be on the money. Gravitational lensing exists, and initial experiments have shown that time/space does curve. There's a probe due to go up in the next few years that sets out to prove time/space curvature beyond a doubt.

Black holes were first semi described by a astronomer a few hundred years ago - very loosely formulated in rough principle. I'm trying to find the guys name, but it's eluding me at the moment.

I really do recommend reading that book I linked to in an earlier post, it's a very good read.

Dave
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  #27  
Old 31-05-2009, 07:22 AM
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Einstein pretty much proved that Newtons laws of gravity weren't wholly accurate. For the planets they're mostly OK, but not totally accurate. Einsteins theories have been proven many times to be on the money. Gravitational lensing exists, and initial experiments have shown that time/space does curve. There's a probe due to go up in the next few years that sets out to prove time/space curvature beyond a doubt.

Black holes were first semi described by a astronomer a few hundred years ago - very loosely formulated in rough principle. I'm trying to find the guys name, but it's eluding me at the moment.

I really do recommend reading that book I linked to in an earlier post, it's a very good read.

Dave
Pierre Simon LaPLace postulated the existance of Black Holes in 1795. Unfortunately in the context of Newtonian physics it would not have been possible for him to come up with the correct mathematical model.

The divergence of Newtonian physics from GR is apparent in how each theory predicts the velocity of an object falling into a black hole as measured by an observer outside the event horizon.

Newtonian physics predicts a steady increase in velocity which reaches a maximum value at the event horizon.

GR on the other hand predicts the object reaches a maximum velocity at 3 times the value of the radius of the event horizon, then begins to slow down. Finally at the event horizon the object is stationary.

We will never see an object actually fall into a black hole.

Regards

Steven
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  #28  
Old 31-05-2009, 09:14 AM
dpastern (Dave Pastern)
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:-)

Dave
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  #29  
Old 31-05-2009, 06:39 PM
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I recall that "black holes" are only found in a binary system ... this is or is not a fact... I mean I really dont know but I have read that someplace...

I think we think General Relativity will describe everything we seek to observe and that seems rather silly... Folk claim general relativity is a given but what if it is not..after all it is based on a premise which for mine seems irrelevant to how the Universe deals with gravity...

Therefore one could be cautious in concluding that black holes are a given in the form spectulated...

There is no doubt about the observations as to lensing,for example, but General relativity is only a geometric description of space so it seems difficult to accept that the observed geometry can make reliable predictions... geometry describes what it observes one would think and not elevate itself to the role of prediction...A man excited with the notion of general relativity driven to distraction in a trench in the first world war came up with the black hole concept as I understand ..Dr A the presenter of the geometry of General relativity did not go alone with the notion ...and I am inclined to back him over others...

If black holes exist they have little influence on their galaxies (if they are there) .. whereas we are presented with the notion that they are absolutely central and controlling upon galactic evolvement..how could this be so if their influence is so minimal when it reaches us let alone the outter regions of our galaxy....consider what influence does sag A have upon our region of space...zip thats what..how much mass do you need in a black hole given the inverse square rule to "balance" or influence the gallaxy..well it seems we need much bigger than sag A....so I dont see their value on "control" of the galaxy...anyways thats my effort to spark some thinking on these matters rather than settling for a simple acceptance of what we are fed....

alex
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  #30  
Old 31-05-2009, 06:58 PM
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astroron (Ron)
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There seem s to be confusion as to solar type "Black Holes" and million solar mass "Black Holes" .
People seem to be jumping from one to the other
They are different beasts with the same name
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  #31  
Old 31-05-2009, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post

If black holes exist they have little influence on their galaxies (if they are there) .. whereas we are presented with the notion that they are absolutely central and controlling upon galactic evolvement..how could this be so if their influence is so minimal when it reaches us let alone the outter regions of our galaxy....consider what influence does sag A have upon our region of space...zip thats what..how much mass do you need in a black hole given the inverse square rule to "balance" or influence the gallaxy..well it seems we need much bigger than sag A....so I dont see their value on "control" of the galaxy...anyways thats my effort to spark some thinking on these matters rather than settling for a simple acceptance of what we are fed....

alex
Alex,

I think the evidence for the supermassive black hole in Sgr A is proving to be fairly strong. However I agree with you on the point you made above.

Out of curiosity, I did some rough calculations on the Sgr A* supermassive black hole of 4 million solar masses, distance 26000 light years. You would need roughly 37000 such black holes at the centre of the Galaxy to produce the same gravitational force on our Sun as the Sun would have on the planet Neptune. I would have to say that its gravitational effect is fairly insignificant at 26000 light years.

Anyone with some maths knowledge can check these calculations ...
Mass of the Sun is 2x10^30 kg, mass of Neptune is 10^26 kg.
4 million solar masses is 8x10^36 kg.
One light year is 9.46x10^12 km.
26000 light years is 2.46x10^17 km.
Distance of Neptune from the Sun is 4.5x10^9 km.

Using the formula F/G=Mm/r^2 gives a result for
Sgr A* & Sun of F/G=(8x10^36)x(2x10^30)/(2.46x10^17)^2=2.7x10^32
Sun & Neptune of F/G=(2x10^30)x(10^26)/(4.5x10^9)^2=10^37
10^37/(2.7x10^32)=37000

Regards, Rob
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  #32  
Old 01-06-2009, 08:20 AM
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I dont argue that there is no sag A as we get data saying something is there..it is called now sag a and most will say it is a black hole... therefore it will be in the form we hold in our minds, a traditional although super massive black hole built from the extrapolation of general relativity to produce such a unit... all I say is although observations are consistent with the "black hole" predictions I see no reason to exclude other explanations or interpretations of the data...

I defy anyone to show how a black hole in whatever form you conceive it to be can produce the jets they are believed to be responsible for...yet when one considers how a binary system could produce a massive jet it jumps out as being mechanically achievable and indeed simple....particularly if ..like me you take into account how gravity must work at a physical level as oppossed to a geometric construct born from mind games....with respect to Dr A... he also thought little of the black hole concept as I said.

Black holes have run away with our imagination and are attributted with properties that suit Hollywood more than the lab in my view... clearly if one actually does the sums one finds their influence is nothing like we have built in our minds... sag a but one example...there are many reports of super massive black holes but who takes the time to work out how massive they need to be if they are to rule the galaxy by gravity...man it would be so massive ..actually any black hole will have to many times more massive than its host galaxy ...the inverse square rule will produce some big numbers as to mass for a black hole if it were to influence even a grain of sand at the edge of our gallaxy... so how would you go with sombrero galaxy or other biggies...how massive do we need a black hole in m87.. consider some of the diameters of galaxies and then let the inverse square rule take a meaningful grip on its expectations of central mass and galactic influence...

To me the main reason I find attraction unacceptable as the "method" of gravity is the problems it and the inverse square rule generate that seems attraction would never "hold" a galaxy together...needless to say a galaxy can only be held together by an external influence... the outter stars rotate faster than they should from the current approach so we need dark matter...not so an external pressure will explain it much more simply..pass the razor...


Anyways if they call it black or dark (dark matter) and say its there but we cant see it lets seek more reasonable and realistic explanations of how it all works.

Man we now have dark matter 3d maps... but just look at how they worked out the lensing... I can not see they are right, they have come from the ball and the blanket example to do their science and to me obviously absolutely flawed... but like the effect of super massive black holes on galaxies who actually questions these propostitions... dark matter is unsupportable and the current 3d map really proved it to me..if others cant see it that is not my problem...

We find ourselves where we are via math /geometry extrapolations originating from original general premises..General relativity comes from a premise I believe is irrelevant to considering how the Universe works.. how a man experiences a ride in a lift just does not do it for me...and yet from a simple premise all we have today has grown...All I ask is what if that premise is indeed flawed and inappropriate... what then...will we still have black holes and dark matter?


alex
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  #33  
Old 01-06-2009, 09:00 AM
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"I don't know what you're doing, therefore you don't know what you're doing."
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  #34  
Old 01-06-2009, 11:24 AM
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"I don't know what you're doing, therefore you don't know what you're doing."
was this supposed to go into the "favourite Quotes" thread?
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  #35  
Old 01-06-2009, 12:19 PM
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"I don't know what you're doing, therefore you don't know what you're doing."
And another thing ... the observer does not control the outcome ..what is out there is what is out there... it makes no difference how I or anyone else speculates upon unknown facts... the facts will always be the same irrespective of the great or less great minds who indulge such speculation.

But I can easily accept that my views are held by a minority of one... and that is me...on the up side 100% of the minority group agrees with my view not insignificant if you suspect you have a multiple personality disorder.

So how massive do we need to have sag a to influence gravitationally a grain of sand on the edge of our galaxy... lets settle for a radius of 100,000 light years maybe that will make the math easier... more importantly how could it influence anything gravitationally...given its gravity is so great nothing can escape which one could presume to include the "message" of gravity from our black hole to the rest of the Un iverse... When one thinks about how "messages" are communicated between objects ..particles... the suggestion seems to be it is done via messenger particles... well how do they escape the black hole..light can not so why should gravity do any better... if one faces the necessity of some form of interaction to effect gravity one will arrive at a similar point to me... General Relativity is geometry it does not control space it presumes to interprete space... and so we must therefore look at how the arrangement we call a black hole can actually interact with other bodies... its gravity is not generated from the geometry although given the focus on GR most think GR somehow magically controlls space...not there must be a physical mechanical explanation ..which one would resonably presume requires something to leave the black hole to tell the rest of the Universe it is there... I know thinking makes ones head hurt but is there not something interesting about my proposition... how does a BH send out a message of gravity???

alex

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  #36  
Old 01-06-2009, 01:05 PM
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I thought the "current thinking" on super-massive black holes influencing their host galaxy was not so much the "here-and-now" (i.e. once the galaxy is fully formed) but during the inception/formation phase of the galaxy.

Would this not be similar to a star's influence on a solar system during the initial formation stages. after that, multiple-body interacvtions may take over.
(i realise the analogy breaks down a bit since a solar system is not a galaxy.)


From "small thing" big things come...
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  #37  
Old 01-06-2009, 03:32 PM
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I thought the "current thinking" on super-massive black holes influencing their host galaxy was not so much the "here-and-now" (i.e. once the galaxy is fully formed) but during the inception/formation phase of the galaxy.

Would this not be similar to a star's influence on a solar system during the initial formation stages. after that, multiple-body interacvtions may take over.
(i realise the analogy breaks down a bit since a solar system is not a galaxy.)


From "small thing" big things come...
I cant argue against what you present.
I have read stuff along such lines and stuff that tells how black holes in effect "clean out" the inner regions of the galaxy. The only problem with a parrallel between a solar system formation and a galaxy may be distance... I simply think that when one considers the limited influence even a super massive black hole can only have by virtue of appling the inverse square rule one must ask well just how far out can it gather in matter ..also we now have the question ..how did galaxies form .. the same size as we see them now??? Do they eat as they go...it seems yes they do... our galaxy seems to have eaten smaller galaxies so it raises the question ..what size was it when it set out.... The time limitation dictated to us by following the big bang idea seems to eliminate a growing and seems to suggest all gallaxies started rather large..compared to a solar system... eating a few neighbours as it aged.
I dont know obviously..but neither does anyone else for sure irrespective of the merit of the theory (big bang) ... I dont like big bang in its current form as I am not happy with the inflation aspect which for me makes it laughable as a realistic theory of the start of the Universe..still thats my view..inflation is accepted ( without experiment) .... were the galaxies formed before or after inflation for example... if before mmmm if after mmmm anyways... I bet we never actually can prove black holes are there... beyond doubt..er my doubt that is... and why do they have to be black..if light cant escape and it is "white" wouldnt that mean the black hole is in fact white???
Thanks for your input but dont get sucked in by black holes
alex
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  #38  
Old 01-06-2009, 05:05 PM
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So how massive do we need to have sag a to influence gravitationally a grain of sand on the edge of our galaxy... lets settle for a radius of 100,000 light years maybe that will make the math easier... more importantly how could it influence anything gravitationally...given its gravity is so great nothing can escape which one could presume to include the "message" of gravity from our black hole to the rest of the Un iverse... When one thinks about how "messages" are communicated between objects ..particles... the suggestion seems to be it is done via messenger particles... well how do they escape the black hole..light can not so why should gravity do any better... if one faces the necessity of some form of interaction to effect gravity one will arrive at a similar point to me...

alex
I've been thinking about this one. The Sun takes 220 million years to orbit the Galaxy centre. Whether it is the Sun or a grain of sand at our distance, the orbital period has to be the same. The period of orbit depends only on the mass of the central body and the distance of the satellite object (T=2pi x sqr(r^3/GM).
It is not the mass of the orbiting body that is important but the speed that it is orbiting at. Theoretically, our Sun could orbit the Galaxy centre at a billion light years distance but it would have to have an orbital speed near zero or it would shoot off into space. In reality, at this distance, other bodies beyond the Galaxy would start to affect it's orbit and pull it somewhere else anyway.

However, the Galaxy is a multi-body object. The central supermassive black hole would affect stars immediately around it and each star in turn would affect more stars as we move further out from centre. The overall affect is like a slowly spinning web of connected stars.

If the galaxy's central supermassive black hole existed before any significant external star formation, its affects could theoretically go out to great distance pulling gaseous matter around it into a large disk. But after individual star formation, the stars in any local region would have greater affect on each other gravitationally.

What you say about Black Holes is interesting- if nothing escapes e.g. light then how is gravity propagated? Well, it seems that it is propagated, so I guess it is an exception to the rule. Often happens in science.

Regards, Rob.
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  #39  
Old 01-06-2009, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
So how massive do we need to have sag a to influence gravitationally a grain of sand on the edge of our galaxy... lets settle for a radius of 100,000 light years maybe that will make the math easier... more importantly how could it influence anything gravitationally...given its gravity is so great nothing can escape which one could presume to include the "message" of gravity from our black hole to the rest of the Un iverse... When one thinks about how "messages" are communicated between objects ..particles... the suggestion seems to be it is done via messenger particles... well how do they escape the black hole..light can not so why should gravity do any better... if one faces the necessity of some form of interaction to effect gravity one will arrive at a similar point to me... General Relativity is geometry it does not control space it presumes to interprete space... and so we must therefore look at how the arrangement we call a black hole can actually interact with other bodies... its gravity is not generated from the geometry although given the focus on GR most think GR somehow magically controlls space...not there must be a physical mechanical explanation ..which one would resonably presume requires something to leave the black hole to tell the rest of the Universe it is there... I know thinking makes ones head hurt but is there not something interesting about my proposition... how does a BH send out a message of gravity???

alex

alex
Alex,

Why should a BH effect a grain of sand 50,000 light years away?
You might see it as a major issue I see as irrelevant.

I assume a "message of gravity" is the quantum mechanical version of gravity, the graviton (if it exists).

The answer is quite simple, like the other force carriers (photon, W and Z bosons and meson/gluon), the force of gravity is created the instant the graviton is emitted.

Regards

Steven
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  #40  
Old 01-06-2009, 08:41 PM
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Thanks Rob and Steven for your consideration and comment.
I understand the matters relating to orbit speed etc... my selection of a grain of sand was to have an object that would take little to move... so if the bh can influence something lets try a grain of sand... I would have thought the black hole would be massive beyond reasonable limits if we are to conclude it can influence all the gallaxy via gravity... as to a pass on effect from star to star ...yes interesting but I feel such a system would not hold a galaxy together..but then I am pushing the exterior force idea so I will be careful and think longer about such a system.

Steven all I am pointing to as to the message of gravity escaping a black hole is simple... our sums tell us nothing can escape yet it must..at least the mythical graviton I would reason is/if created and must travel to other parts of the Universe to get the message of gravity to another object... well if the gravity is so strong one could expect that not even a particle can leave...be it a photon or a graviton... the bh sums say they can not leave .... mind you I dont believe in the graviton as it no doubt works via attraction and as you know I say attraction is a mythical force which does not function in reality...gravity works via push I feel and in that case nothing need leave the black hole to communicate gravity as the gravity comes from the exterior a pressure is a way of looking at it I guess... so we dont have any messaging problems as I raised for an attraction system... sorry folks I have tried to give it (push gravity) up but here it comes again...I am sick of it so I appreciate all of you must feel similar...thanks for the well considered comments.

alex
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