Astronomy not astrology!

[Baddad (Marty)]

Hey, Astro Geeks

Good one Robh, and the following comments as well.

I just don't see the point in wasting my time with most of those people who are into astrology. Whatever we may say, usually, is ignored. These type live in a dream fantasy and believe themselves to be right.

So who is supposed to benefit more from an open mind? Does being ignorant of the science of astronomy and believing in astrology mean one has an open mind?

The one living in ignorant fantasy, or the one searching for knowledge and forming an informed opinion? Someone is missing something.

Is it worth the effort?

Many years ago I came upon the following:

He who knows not,
And knows he knows not,
He is a student.

He who knows,
And knows he knows
He is a teacher.

He who knows not,
And knows not he knows not.
He is a fool.
Shun him.

I was an eleven year old at the time, but the meaning grew over the years. It tends to 'agree' with me.

Cheers Marty

[Rhino1980 (Ryan)]

I got a phone call from a family friend yesterday who was eager to tell me about the "Astrology" expo in Port Macquarie... I kinda felt bad correcting her but can't have her telling people I'm into Astrology!

[Robh (Rob)]

Originally Posted by Baddad

Many years ago I came upon the following:

He who knows not,
And knows he knows not,
He is a student.

He who knows,
And knows he knows
He is a teacher.

He who knows not,
And knows not he knows not.
He is a fool.
Shun him.

Cheers Marty

Nice one, Marty.

Having started this thread, I've been reading all the comments. Interesting stories and opinions- clever, extended and entertaining as well. Had lots of laughs. Sorry, even yours Marki, until I realised you were serious (were you?).

The comment "Pure science only accounts for 10% of the big picture & has pretty much taken the fun out of living." Agree and disagree. Pure science (only 10%?) isn't the whole picture, at least not for me. But I think it has added more fun to our lives. Pure science leads to practical outcomes e.g. the laser.

I detect some leanings towards astrology here amongst our science community (yes, astronomy is a science). Which is interesting!
I think that the references to astrology as spiritual is stretching it. It is supposedly based in fact but certainly can't claim to any spiritual enlightenment. Any bites?

Rob

[Davekyn (David)]

Sorry if my comment upset you Badad-Marty. I don't believe everyone that keeps an open mind is ignorant to science at all. I do think though, there are a large number of people that look through telescopes, that believe in many things. Whilst I can understand peoples frustration at others refering to thier hobby as somthing else completely different...I don't see the reason to start attacking them for thier beliefs.

If anything...it's been really hard to put up with the pompas attitudes & superiority complexs comming out of forum members who soley regard thier hobby as an academic one. But none the less, there are those in IIS that like me, enjoy the hobby for what it is.

No doubt, your probably a good bloke with decent intentions...Just thought you should, I'm ceartainly not ignorant of science and it's benifits. Just like yourself...as one pompas fellow reacently said..."It was poorly presented"...Nice to see your passionate about your hobby though. If it will cheer you up, I could email you some brain teasers

Just don't take me to literal is all...I know I'm not perfect.

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Jeez Dave - a "pompas"? Now I've been well and truly told!

Originally Posted by Robh

Until the 14th Century, astrology and astronomy were often indistinguishable. Astrologers believed that celestial bodies directly influenced human behaviour. Astronomical observations were often made so that astrologers could attempt to predict the course of human events. Astronomy diverged from astrology during the Renaissance and, after the 18th Century, astronomy became a purely scientific study.]

Interesting summation Rob - and one I couldn't find immediate fault with. I wonder how many court astrologers over the eons were in it for the position, and subsequent power it gave them, over an audience that didn't know any better. It must have been a balancing act, using the odds and full knowing that their advice kept them in a position of influence and privilege...as long as it was right some of the time. Then again, I guess that they must have really believed in it themselves. I wonder what they thought when predictions failed to occur... as indeed they would have. Would they have loaded the predictions to shorten those odds? My guess is yes, that would have been part of the "skill". LOL!

I find it interesting that in this day and age people (read: many people) still give this astrology drivel any credibility. It seems that only some in the world have finally progressed past the dark ages. Suggesting to have an "open mind" about it is just a cop-out - unless you're also really into voodoo, have a black cat and think it's colour is spiritually significant, or avoid walking under ladders because it may affect your luck on the tote.

PS - "Astronomy", as such, is a science and is therefore intrinsically academic by nature. "Stargazing" is whatever you want it to be...

Yep - I'm off. I've booked myself in for a spot of bleeding this afternoon.

[Geoff45 (Geoff)]

Originally Posted by Quark

The Sun is in the following constellations during the year.

Dec 19 to Jan 19 Sagittarius
Jan 19 to Feb 18 Capricorn
Feb 18 to March 13 Aquarius
March 13 to April 20 Pisces
April 20 to May 13 Aries
May 13 to June 21 Taurus
June 21 to July 20 Gemini
July 20 to Aug 11 Cancer
Aug 11 to Sept 18 Leo
Sept 18 to Nov 1 Virgo
Nov 1 to Nov 22 Libra
Nov 22 to Dec 1 Scorpius
Dec 1 to Dec 19 Orphiuchus

Note also that according to the astrology mob, the sun is in Aries from 21 March to sometime in April. It may have been the case 2000 years ago, but now it is in Pisces at this time. This crowd haven't cottoned on to precession yet. They say ridiculous things like Jupiter is in such and such a sign, when a casual glance at the sky will show that it's not.

[stephenb (Stephen)]

An interesting read is the Wikipedia entry for Astrology. Also interesting is the Discussion page for the same entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Astrology.

[Baddad (Marty)]

Hey Dave-kyn,

I don't believe everyone that keeps an open mind is ignorant to science at all.

Not upset at all. My target was the people who try to make you believe in astrology, tell you keep an open mind and you know that they are rather narrow minded themselves and ignorant.

If a person is knowledgeable and chooses to believe in astrology. That is an entirely different matter. I respect that. As long as they leave it out of conversation.

To debate such a subject leads to name calling in the end. Both parties lose, no one wins. I would like to see all wins and if that's not achieveable. Then call it a draw and don't debate it.

Thanks for the consideration Dave, it was not upsetting. I do enjoy a discussion with informed people. That is why I like this forum as opposed to others. I can learn a lot.

Cheers Marty

[Baddad (Marty)]

Originally Posted by ghsmith45

Note also that according to the astrology mob, the sun is in Aries from 21 March to sometime in April. It may have been the case 2000 years ago, but now it is in Pisces at this time. This crowd haven't cottoned on to precession yet. They say ridiculous things like Jupiter is in such and such a sign, when a casual glance at the sky will show that it's not.

Hey Geoff,

I was wondering if the above were the case.

You have put forward a great augument there Geoff. I understand it, but try to tell "astrologists". You will come off second best.
Like I mentioned before, is it worth it? Do you need to spend your precious time to convert an "infidel"? What do you gain from it?

Let them live their fantasies. They're not hurting anyone. Most are not high achievers academically, but those that are, are interesting to talk to. Its the passionate ones, ill informed that you keep at a safe distance.

Good one Geoff.

Cheers Marty

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by Baddad

Hey Geoff,

Let them live their fantasies. They're not hurting anyone. Most are not high achievers academically, but those that are, are interesting to talk to. Its the passionate ones, ill informed that you keep at a safe distance.

Cheers Marty

An example of an academic high achiever who believed in astrology was my ex brother in law.

An IQ of 170, who did crossword puzzles in his head, played chess with his back turned to the board and an intellect that allowed him comprehend abstract topics such as Quantum mechanics without any formal training, believed in astrology!

We had many debates on astrology. He quite rightly pointed out I was an anti-rationalist as I had an opinion on a subject without actually having any knowledge or understanding of the subject.

We decided he would train me on the fine points of astrology, how to cast horoscopes, and interpret them.

It didn't change my opinion of astrology, and from an insiders perspective it is a very inexact "science".

Regards

Steven

[NeilW]

I have to keep reminding my local newsagent to stop putting Sky & Telescope magazine in the Astrology section!!

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

Our news agent keeps them next to the girly magazines.
He must think that Astronomy is only for boyz.

[NeilW]

Guess he just thinks they're all heavenly bodies

[TJD (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by Robh

Some history ...
Until the 14th Century, astrology and astronomy were often indistinguishable. Astrologers believed that celestial bodies directly influenced human behaviour. Astronomical observations were often made so that astrologers could attempt to predict the course of human events. Astronomy diverged from astrology during the Renaissance and, after the 18th Century, astronomy became a purely scientific study.

My story ...
A few weeks ago, I had dinner with some friends. A friend (who will remain nameless) asked me how my astrology was going.
I laughed and said it was astronomy not astrology! I said I do real science; astrology has no basis in reality. I added, it is ridiculous to think all Virgos have the same traits or that a daily horoscope will apply to everyone belonging to a certain star sign.

I was told that I should keep an open mind!!!

Anyone else had to defend this position?
I'm a non-believer but I thought I'd sample the IIS clan just for curiosity.
Astrology, daily horoscopes, traits determined by star sign.
Fact or fiction?

Seriously, but maybe not, Rob.

yeh astrologeys that bad
i saw poo bear yesterday too
not to menchine that im an alien thats just dressed up as a human
and my mission is to find all the other aliens and great them

Originally Posted by ngcles

Hi Rob & All,



Have I had to defend this position? Working at Sydney Observatory -- probably several times per week.

Keep an open mind? -- If you keep your mind that far open, your brains will fall out.


Best,

Les D

its true it hapened to my friend

[Octane (Humayun)]

Something I've always found interesting is that horoscopes never say anything like "today, you are going to die."

What a load of pseudoscientific garbage. I've had debates with people who believe in this codswallop, and, whenever I've mentioned precession, they tell /me/ to keep an open mind.

Puh-leeze!

Regards,
Humayun