Why so few girls?

[Blue Skies (Jacquie)]

Originally Posted by Robh

Does anyone have a different feeling about the stats?
Are there any male/female couples out there that regularly do astronomical viewing together?
Assuming my feelings about the stats are right, my question in this International Year of Astronomy is “Why so few girls?” Why have we, as a society, not attracted more woman into this field of endeavour?
Are guys more “hard-wired” to astronomy or is it a case of “pink or blue, dolls or trucks” from an early age?
Female viewpoint welcome!
Curious, Rob

You're looking in the wrong place - come to Perth and you'll find a very strong female presence in the club scene here. This has been the norm for several years, and if I may name drop, even David Malin commented on it about 10 years ago when he was here for an Astrofest event. ASWA has had two female presidents in the past and is looking at third. And I know of at least two husband/wife couples who love their observing with equal passion. A rough count of women I usually see active in ASWA comes to...11 at least so any other women coming along usually fit right in and stay. At least two of them are techno-geeks and spend a lot of time choosing the best gadgets for their high-quality refractors to play with.

So, it can be done.

I would have to say personally I have not been discouraged in this hobby because of my gender. If you are enthusiastic about it and just jump right in for the love of it no one seems to really care if you're a boy or girl, at least that's what I've found.

[spacezebra (Petra)]

Hi all

Well encapsulated JJJ!

Cheers Petra d.

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

Yeah, there's not many of us around.
Why?
You'd have to ask those women who aren't interested in Astronomy that question.
Me, I love it, I breathe it, I'm a total Astro bore and proud of it.
I can't understand why everybody else doesn't love it too.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by Bolts_Tweed

As an Engineering lecturer I have seen the number of females entering the Engineering u/g program increase steadily from less than 1% to over 8% presently - still too low but it is refelected in the traditional sciences at our uni. Interestingly the uni medal for best u/g engineering result has gone to a female for 6 of the last 7 years.

I'm very heartened that the number of female engineering students is rising, and the same is true at my uni. The comment about their success is interesting. I expect their is a self-selection of very motivated students into non-traditional areas. Those who are a but more lazy stay with something 'safe'.

Years ago my wife worked in non-traditional jobs (industry, construction) and the experience then was that a woman had to be above average to be accepted. That isn't right. Until a woman has the right to be as mediocre as the bloke next to her there won't be career-opportunity equality.

Meanwhile my wife is out tonight at the meeting of our local astronomy club, and pretty much running the show, while I can't be bothered going. She certainly got interested in astronomy through me and for a long time basically oscillated between astronomy widow and hanger-on. However in the last 5 or so years she has decided to get into astronomy in her own right. We have two scopes and I occasionally let her use one and she is improving her knowledge of astronomy and the sky. She doesn't, however, lurk on IIS.

[charsiubau]

I was already an avid science fiction reader by the time I was 14 when I looked at the Orion nebula and trapezium through a friend's brother's 60 mm scope for the first time. My husband and I bought our first scope (a 5 inch Celestron) together 33 years ago before we'd even discussed marriage - though my friend said she figured we were serious when we did that.http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/..../winking70.gif Astronomy took a back burner while we were raising a family but we got back into it more regularly 5 years ago inspired by the great opposition of Mars and since then have acquired a few more telescopes. We are both equally interested in astronomy, but he gets much more enthusiastic about equipment (in a typically male way). However I can read maps (contrary to the female stereotype) and know my way round the sky better than he does. It seems to me that astronomy just grabs some people and not others, and I don't think it's a particularly male - female thing. That said there does seem to be a preponderance of males in the hobby - but it's definitely not as male-dominated as model trains (my husband's other hobby).

[ngcles]

Hi All,

I posted earlier on this and have read and re-read my post a few times to try and check whether I might have caused offense -- which was not my intention. I hope I haven't. I haven't had any email or private messages motivating me to post again, but just feel the need to clarify.

For the purposes of crystallizing what I said earlier, I'll try and summarize it succinctly:

(1) It is probably true for a host of reasons related to our respective make-up, that less women than men will develop an interest in astronomy.

(2) Of those ladies that do develop an interest, I think they have historically come from a position of socio-economic and cultural disadvantage within our hobby and in professional astronomy. That has gradually changed and barriers are being broken-down and I hope that change will accelerate. We need as many positive role-models (male, but particularly female) as possible to promote this.

(3) Of those ladies that do have or develop an interest, it is very important that all of us -- men and women make sure that is fostered and not suppressed or allowed to wither on the vine.

Maybe I've dug myself deeper into a hole -- I dunno. If I've got it wrong -- (boys or girls) let me know.

I'm delighted to hear things are different in WA Jacquie and that participation is as high as it is.

Its not just equality of the sexes at stake here, this is about furthering the interests of astronomy, as a science and a hobby as a whole. The more people we have actively involved and participating (male or female) the better it will be for all of us.

Oh, and BTW JJJ I missed it earlier when you said:

"Me, I love it, I breathe it, I'm a total Astro bore and proud of it.
I can't understand why everybody else doesn't love it too."

Phew !! Its not just me ...


Best,

Les D

P.S There goes my emoticon allowance again ...

[Jen]

The one thing that does hold me back from getting really full on in this hobby i find is when you have met a guy on here that has a 20inch scope that i am dying to go have a play with but its hard to go to another guys house and basically spend the night there till the sun comes up while your hubby is home sleeping it just dosnt seem to be the right thing to do so unless you have a hubby thats into it too it can make it a very difficult situation to be in i have gone over there and taken hubby with me twice now and we all get along great but i think he might get bored after a while but it was yucky weather each time i have gone there i havnt caught up with him for a while now ( i must give him a buzz soon)
I dont know any girls that i could go out and stay out till the sun comes up and play with all these awsome toys i only know guys

[marki]

Sounds like you are going to have to start an all girls astronomy club in your town Jen.

Mark

[Ric]

I think there are a lot of women making inroads into Astronomy as a hobby and profession at the moment.

This months guest speaker at our Astro Society meeting is a female Phd student with Mt Stromlo Observatory who will be talking about water on Mars.

Great stuff if you ask me.

cheers

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

I can understand what you're saying Jen.
I go away most new moons to Cambroon Observatory, but there's usually such a crowd of us. And most times another lady, Maureen, comes along too for a while.
Most of the gents I've met in the hobby are true gentlemen.

[astroron (Ron)]

I have noticed in the last couple of years the amount of females that have joined iceinspace has been a steady flow and a few of them are very regular posters to the forums

"Most of the gents I've met in the hobby are true gentlemen".
I hope you where including me in that statementJeanette

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

You're always the Gentleman Ron.
And if there is any ungentleman like behaviour from others, I know that I have you, Paul, Alex and the others to look after me.

[spacezebra (Petra)]

Hi Jen

My new moon nights usually wideup about 3am with our society members.

Meanwhile (back at the homestead) partner is home tucked in bed zzzzZZZZZZing or watching Westerns!

I travelled solo to Nhill VicSouth Desert Spring Star Party in 2007 - saw the sun come up and had a ball observing with a great group of guys!

I have no barriers or blockers to my love of astronomy, observe when I like and buy what ever takes my fancy to feed the hobby. Its great and would not have it any otherway.

Cheers Petra d.

[Robh (Rob)]

I have two daughters. I've always been into maths and science and now, into astronomy. I couldn't get either of them interested in these areas. They followed in their mother's footsteps and are both into the creative arts. I am, of course, proud of them both.

From the posts, here are some of the points ...
Different girl/guy interests (Venus/Mars theory). Social and "peer norms" are influencing choices. Lower pay hasn't allow women the freedom to pursue the hobby. Traditional roles (home caretaker, child-rearing) hasn't allowed women time or opportunity. Unwelcoming, male-dominant clubs. Women are patronized, ignored ... humiliated.

Originally Posted by ngcles

Its not just equality of the sexes at stake here, this is about furthering the interests of astronomy, as a science and a hobby as a whole. The more people we have actively involved and participating (male or female) the better it will be for all of us ...

Les, you made a lot of good points but I thought I'd reproduce this one.

Thanks for the honest comments. Awareness ---> Solution.
It's great to see just how passionate the girls here feel about astronomy!

Regards, Rob.

Feel free to make further comments ...

[JD2439975 (Justin)]

Originally Posted by Jen

But on a girley note i do love the color PURPLE and i loveeeeee emoticons so there is a hint of girley hormones there somewhere

Glad you came out of the closet with that one Jen, we never would have guessed.

So how many of the women here think of themselves as Tomboys?
And do you feel you "think" more like a man? (whatever that is).

As for the way women can be treated when entering groups/hobbies/forums a negative emotional response can put anyone off anything, and it only takes one in the group to ruin your day.

Put the losers on ignore and enjoy the day girls.

Things are changing, not overnight but slowly.
As more women act as role models in previously male dominated fields, the easier it is for girls to say "I want to do that, that's for me".
Ya hear that Jen, you're a role model.

Besides, I've always thought a women "under" a bonnet was much sexier than one draped across it.

[Chippy (Nick)]

Interestingly, astronomy has become one of the physical sciences where a fair proportion of "professional astronomers" are now women. Working for CSIRO (and the ATNF) for many years I can say this with confidence. There is still a majority of men of course, and VERY few older female astronomers, but a fair percentage of the younger to middle aged astronomers are women. This is actively encouraged too, and I believe women are now getting the same level of respect and opportunity for career advancement in this field.

Having said this (and I certainly agree with most of the comments above), whilst the doors to female astronomy are beginning to open more & more, I feel that the level of female participation is (and will likely remain) MUCH lower in "amateur astronomy" circles by comparison. I think there are a number of reasons for this. I certainly hope that it does change (and the faster the better!) but I think it will be a very slow process, and that men will always far outnumber the women in this hobby.

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

All the relavent arguments regarding this thread have been touched on I guess so this is a little off topic (sorry ) but someone mentioned the apparent disparity in sallary between men and women in Australia....but no one mentioned the disparity between work related illness and deaths..?..guess what that is..?

LOTS more men die at work than women, in fact it's almost 10:1 Can ya believe that? If that ain't sobering I dunno what is? Imagine if it were the other way around ? Also, 83% of admissions to casuality wards in Australia for work related injury/illness are men. Hmmm? How come we don't hear these statistics?

Sorry for the digression but sooooo many FAR more important comparissions are over looked in male vs female debates in favour of the more politically correct and dare I say it?..more trivial ones?

Still wish more girls liked asronomy though....particularly my wife

Mike

[rider]

I'm the only male Astronomy nut in my family, and I was introduced to it by Mrs R. (the Astro Goddess) -who by the way owns the biggest scope.

and I'm glad the ladies in my family didn't read this thread, because the adjudicator would have had to remove some angry replies regarding the ancient, discredited "only men are problem solvers, women just read no-idea magazines" attitudes expressed in this thread.

there may be a change to the demographics coming., I am currently doing an astro-course at which there are 7 women and 5 men.

Rider (2)

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by rider

"only men are problem solvers, women just read no-idea magazines"

Ok... hang on a sec there. Time out! Your words, not mine. My argument is that blokes are practical in solving some kind of problems because women will always have an emotional answer to some degree to various situations. I think they are more intuitive, yes but definitely more emotional. Having said that I've got no problem with you reading woman's day.

[Liz]

As many have said, times are changing slowly as more girls get involved in Astronomy/Sciences/other male dominated domains. That works both ways ..... when I started nursing ....waaaaaay back, there were no boys, or 1 every 2 years, if Matron agreed, now there are guys everywhere!!
Prob about 20% of our Astronomy Group are females, are growing, though it was only me for quite awhile

[rider]

Regardless of numbers, I think the ladies who are into astronomy have contributed above their fighting weight.

Williamina Fleming, Henrietta Leavitt, Annie Jump Cannon, Cecilia Payne, were all responsible for great advances in our knowledge of the universe, (and, I am ashamed to say, that the men each one worked with, took the accolades.)
Rider