Higgs Bosen..the God Particle

[xelasnave]

Firstly why do they call it the God Particle???

Anyways reading about it as much as I can it seems the reason they came up with the need for such a particle was the need to give other massless particles mass??? or rather that other particles did not have mass they needed the Higgs Bosen (as theorised by Mr Higgs I guess) ...

so I find it hard to think particles can exist without mass and although that is where the work has lead them if particles previously thought to be massless are found to have mass does that mean they dont need the HB... Is that right?

I was wondering because I have also read if they dont find it (the HB) then most everything of the standard model (the current way they believe it is) will have to be thrown out.

Surely if they can revise the sums and maybe assign/give mass to those particles they say has no mass we can keep some of the standard model...assuming they may not find the HB...although other work seems to suggest it so cern is not a first go as it were.

OR......what are the real implications of not finding the HB

AND is a photon made up using any HB's...

alex

[xelasnave]

The cloud has magically cleared and although there must be some moisture I think I will go out and see if I can photograph something....

alex

[Kevnool (Kev)]

We shall see what happens when the LHC comes back online....cheers Kev.

[GeoffW1 (Geoff)]

Hi Alex,

Here is a condensed version of what Paul Davies has to say about the search for the Higgs Boson and what it will mean. This is decidedly not my stuff, but given in the same order Davies does (I am reading this book just now and still struggle to understand it completely):

We have 12 particles which make up all known matter. There are 6 leptons including the electron, and 6 quarks. Then there are the antimatter counterparts of all these, with an opposite electrical charge except for the 3 neutrinos which don't have any.

Also there is a whole menagerie of other particles which are not building blocks of matter as we understand it because they all decay very quickly.

Matter is subject to 4 fundamental forces:

- the strong force
- the weak force
- the electromagnetic force (combined by Maxwell)
- gravity of course

These forces operate by exchange of yet more particles. The photon (not the one which comes out of light bulbs, but different) and the still undetected graviton are the best known of these. In all there are 12 exchange particles to make these forces work, collectively called bosons (aha).

These bosons act according to the theorems of quantum mechanics, and Glashow et al used this to combine the weak force and the electromagnetic force in an electroweak theory, which required 3 specific bosons to exist in addition to the photon we already knew about. These were duly detected in the CERN particle accelerator in 1983. What's French for "you little beauty"?

Thus encouraged physicists then worked out what bosons were needed by the strong force, and deduced that 8 gluons would do the job (if it's Selleys, it works I guess).

All this is the Standard Model, but physicists seem to feel there is unfinished business, such as bringing gravitation into it and having a Grand Unified Theory.

Of the 12 bosons, the photon, 8 gluons and the graviton are massless. The others have mass, but it is thought to be virtual mass, not intrinsically possessed by the particle. The mass we deduce comes from their effect, and is therefore a quantum mechanical property, not mass at rest.

This effect, for the 3 electroweak bosons having virtual mass, depends (in the theory) on the Higgs Mechanism, which gives rise to the effective masses of particles. This amazing mechanism is due to a theoretical Higgs Field, which is all pervasive in space. In fact, the Higgs Field is thought to govern not only the mass of these 3 bosons, but also those of the 12 leptons and quarks. It is a "God-like" field, if you wish.

Now if the Higgs Field exists it should have a boson, just like the other fields we know of. We have never detected this Field, but it has such a strong base in theory that most physicists are convinced it exists, in some form.

All we have to do is find a Higgs Boson, the "God-particle". It is predicted to be a very massive particle, more than 180 times that of a proton. That is the job of the LHC. If the Higgs Boson exists, we know why particles have mass, and the Standard Model is good, as far as it goes. If it is not detected, some or all of the theory is wrong, and they go back to the whiteboard.

I need a rest now,

Cheers

[xelasnave]

Geoff thank you for your very well considered post.

I dont know why they bother I have worked out the unification of the forces but no one has called me in for a conference yet... and no calls to appear on the radio either.

I find this stuff so interesting and I read and read with the result I know less and less.

I like the idea of the HB because they will find it pushes I bet and that is how the forces will unite... well its better than some of the cults around here.

My reading tells me that there is room for mistakes or incorrect assumption and the one that caught my eye was the fact that most (if not all on the full meaning of the word mass) of the particles are given no mass... this may seem ok from their work but it does not add up to me... one would think that a particle will have some mass irrespective of out ability to messure that mass...and so I wondered if they were hasty in looking for the HB and that maybe their no mass ideas needed revision.

Again thanks for your excellent post it has been helpful for me and I expect many others who will read your commentary.

I would enjoy a specualtion upon what they will do if they dont find it...

I see a conspiracy you see...they are breaking down at cern...thye give us reasons of maintenace and adjustment but I know they trying to put off the day they wont find it...

I dont buy the super symetry trip so I have great difficulty in acceptance of the model ..... but I hope they can go on notwithstanding my lack of faith
alex

[avandonk]

xelasnave it is up to you to put forward a rational mathematecal self consistent theory that is open to testing!

Bert

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by avandonk

xelasnave it is up to you to put forward a rational mathematecal self consistent theory that is open to testing!

Bert

Bert I am still waiting for it to evolve past an idea...the only prediction I have was that the space craft leaving the solar system would slow, appear to stop and appear to rush away from us...they are slowing but they still will have to do what I predict before I worry too much...and that wont happen until I am dead...if at all...as hard as it may be to accept I could be wrong...I know there is no reason for me to think that way but it is possible.

Bert I wish I could handle the work in doing the math.
I did try again the other day but where do you start?
I figured one needed a grid at least to explain any movements and relate any particle to the space and time it was in but I started to feel that was reinventing the wheel.

I should post my "idea of everything" but even at this stage I feel there will be those who want to go with the current science and wont see its virtue.

Still in my silly little way I think I have related gravity to electricity
via the sprite, cloud and lightning relationship but no one seems to understand what I am talking about and fail to see the significance of what I describe... so the world is happy with the current view that gravity works the way it does and I accpet that... but I feel there is merit in my belief.

Further there are heaps of fools out there banging the gravity push drum and the electric universe so I doubt if the world needs more... I used to persue it because I thought I was the only one with such an idea and it was my duty to present it... well there are others so let them do it... there is no money in getting the idea off the ground and even if there was I have better things to do reeally...other than typing on the net.

I do think they were hasty throwing out the eather concept and thereby establishing that a wave needs no medium...such a finding in my view has sent physics down the wrong road one that they will have to come back to that twist that they followed incorrectly......... and if the gravity B probe does not effectively establish that space has physical properties (and that is the gutz of an eather concept) I dont know what it does.

I know maths is required for proof but there are many folk on the net with sums galore and they are still fools ... the difference between me and them is I dont take myself as serious as they must of themselves.

But with this mad woman out of the way maybe I will do more on the math.
I had a tutor for calculus and it was great but I use my own...

AND really you would need a decent team just to put together what I have in mind... look how many are engaged in cern for example and if I were to do anything they are after all the opposition...how can I match such resources... so I dribble on here and there about it... thats enough for me and maybe someone will develop an interest in gravity simply because they start to wonder about it also.

You are a scientist you understand what I would be up against I dont give up but I dont waste my time on something that has little chance of getting up.

There is an establishment that my ideas would topple and I will back the establishement to win over me... Lets think of it this way..if I went to the Pope with absolute proof..an affidavit signed by God even...that JC was not his son etc ...do you think the pope would change anything... of course not..he would say no thanks we are very happy with the way we do business now we dont need to know more...go away.

I like math and physics and really buy most of what is put forward... with reservation which I feel others abandon too fast in the interest of grabbing an observation to support their theory...

I doubt if finding the HB will solve the missing matter mystery (dark matter) which as you may have gathered by now I feel is un necessary simply because they will still need it to support the sums... if the HB is there in the proportion I gather they feel it is then it translates into an eather pretty much to me.

Anyways thanks for the suggestion you are right I should do it and show folk I have abilities they underestimate...but I am the only one that needs to know that, so why bother, I prefer the easy option of playing the fool with no comitment.

alex