David Malin Awards Are they losing it. - Page 2

Kal (Andrew) · #21 12-07-2008, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hagar

The quality of the images is fantastic to say the least but it is near impossible for the Mr average with Mr Average gear to get a look in to anything other than the true widefield or landscape type sections which places most on somewhat of an even playing field and relies on skills in capture and processing with in most cases standard gear affordable to most of us.

If Mr Average with Mr Average gear was truly determined to win an award then they would surely target their entry to the strengths of their Mr Average equipment. If that means widefield or landscape type sections then that should not be a problem for them. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the majority of the great entrants would have purchased their equipment in the first place with a specific goal of being able to produce some sort of targeted image. People buy specific equipment with the goal of doing widefield, large nebula, galaxy, planetaries, narrowband, landscape, or planerary type photos. Mr Average just needs to plan his purchases more carefully than others if he truly expects to be able to 'step up from the Average astroimager' which they will have to do in order to compete for the DM award!

GrahamL · #22 12-07-2008, 09:24 AM

Very true geoff.. ..trouble is when we start awarding places its one persons view..and thats never going to wash with everyone ..without the never ending discussion on changeing judging criterea..adding extra catergies etc ,etc .

Well thats what happens with painters anyway ..sound familiar at all?
I go to the art gallery to enjoy the art .. and don't give a rats arse how it was painted .
look at whats in front of you and be your own judge

Hagar (Doug) · #23 12-07-2008, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kal

If Mr Average with Mr Average gear was truly determined to win an award then they would surely target their entry to the strengths of their Mr Average equipment. If that means widefield or landscape type sections then that should not be a problem for them. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the majority of the great entrants would have purchased their equipment in the first place with a specific goal of being able to produce some sort of targeted image. People buy specific equipment with the goal of doing widefield, large nebula, galaxy, planetaries, narrowband, landscape, or planerary type photos. Mr Average just needs to plan his purchases more carefully than others if he truly expects to be able to 'step up from the Average astroimager' which they will have to do in order to compete for the DM award!

I think you missunderstand the meaning of the thread and some of your statements are truely flawed. Mr Average who has a real love and passion for deep space astrimaging who can only afford an ED80 and a toucam for instance is and has no chance of achieving anything in these awards. His images may well be the greatest web cam images ever presented and really stretch the boundaries if imaging and processing but he will never win an award. If i read the results correctly there was no award presented this year as an encouragement (I can't recal the actual wording used). This couple of awards were not presented. Seems a bit strange that a competition that has this award and 100+ entries that someone would not have fallen into this category. Does this mean the none of the entries were good enough or were they too good.

If the awards entries are a real cross section of the art of astro imaging I find it hard to believe someone in the group wasn't awarded this certificate.

I started this thread in an attempt to highlight and generate some discussion re these and other awards/competitions which have in the past been the topic of discussion re a whole gammut of why whynots and to give me something to read while it is still raining. I personally have no aspirations to win or enter this type of competition. The only competition I wish to enter and win is Tattslotto. It would make retirement a certainty not a future possibility.

Thanks for the reply.

Kal (Andrew) · #24 12-07-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hagar

I think you missunderstand the meaning of the thread and some of your statements are truely flawed. Mr Average who has a real love and passion for deep space astrimaging who can only afford an ED80 and a toucam for instance is and has no chance of achieving anything in these awards.

This may sound a bit harsh to some, but a toucam and an ED80 should never win a DM award either. A toucam excels an an entry level planetary imager, while an ED80 excels as a widefield telescope. The two aren't the best mix for a winning entry. Increase the budget on your combination, going from an ED80 to a TeleVue 101is and from a toucam to a DMK imager, and this still wouldn't be a winning combination, even though the budgest is far greater. Your example shows that you completely missed my point.

A toucam combined with a larger reflector/cat is a potential winner for planetary imaging (although for a little bit more money there are better planetary imagers out there now).

An ED80 combined with a DSLR is a potential winner for deep sky.

As I said, for Mr Average who is on a small budget, you will have to plan your purchases towards a targeted image if you want to have a chance of seriously competing.

ving (David) · #25 12-07-2008, 11:35 AM

there should be more "also ran" awards... or for crumby widefields that just dont make it for some reason... next year i am going to enter with a macro bug shot and a crux backdrop...

rally · #26 12-07-2008, 01:27 PM

David,

Re your Alien Bug

Thats the spirit.
And you know what ? - you might well have a really good chance of being selected.
It would be creative, involve Astro and if its all in focus (that makes it technically difficult) and if well composed is worthy of merit and that should be within anyone's budget who could contemplate entering !

Good luck - I look forward to seeing your entry.

Rally

avandonk · #27 12-07-2008, 01:41 PM

What would be really interesting if there were no names and no mention of equipment on the images just a number.

Bert

iceman (Mike) · #28 12-07-2008, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avandonk

What would be really interesting if there were no names and no mention of equipment on the images just a number.

Bert

I'm pretty sure that's how it is judged - I could be wrong, but I thought David picked them from the images alone and John has the details about the whos and hows once they are picked.

Peter Ward · #29 12-07-2008, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iceman

I'm pretty sure that's how it is judged - I could be wrong, but I thought David picked them from the images alone and John has the details about the whos and hows once they are picked.

That is correct. DM judges the images with no knowledge of who the author is.

Obviously the image scale and resolution does give him a pretty good clue as to what generic type of instrument or camera lens was used....but nothing more.

Hagar (Doug) · #30 12-07-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kal

This may sound a bit harsh to some, but a toucam and an ED80 should never win a DM award either. .

To use your words, a bit harsh is an understatement, A well taken, well structured and well processed image take with the above equipment should have as much chance of winning as a shot taken with &20k worth of equipment. If it doesn't then the competition is flawed and only available to those who meet a certain equipment level and not an image standard.

I have seen images which really stretch the boundaries take with this type of equipment and would shurely have expected an encouragement award to go to someone who has stretched those boundaries.

From your comentary I can only conclude your thoughts on the DM's are that they have elitest status. Why bothr to have encouragement type awards??

Kal (Andrew) · #31 12-07-2008, 07:17 PM

A well taken, well structured image of what? Name any object and I will give you a hardware/camera combination of equal budget that is more suited to imaging the object.

Just because something is possible doean't mean that it is potentially award winning.

And before you try to miscontrue my words, I encourage people to push the limits of what you can do with what you have. Personal satisfaction is a far greater reward than any award.

mick pinner · #32 12-07-2008, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kal

A well taken, well structured image of what? Name any object and I will give you a hardware/camera combination of equal budget that is more suited to imaging the object.

Just because something is possible doean't mean that it is potentially award winning.

And before you try to miscontrue my words, I encourage people to push the limits of what you can do with what you have. Personal satisfaction is a far greater reward than any award.

well put Andrew, as much as l would not be interested in entering such awards l am certainly spurred on by those that do, and those that don't.

Hagar (Doug) · #33 12-07-2008, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kal

A well taken, well structured image of what? Name any object and I will give you a hardware/camera combination of equal budget that is more suited to imaging the object.

Just because something is possible doean't mean that it is potentially award winning.

And before you try to miscontrue my words, I encourage people to push the limits of what you can do with what you have. Personal satisfaction is a far greater reward than any award.

Andrew, It is apparent you are the resident equipment expert, at least in your own mind. Lets take an image of say, Tarantula Nebula. I really think you will struggle to find something in the same price bracket that will encompass the expance of this nebula, include correct colour rendition, and provide a sharp flat field.

Perhaps I should spell out the equipment list for comparison: ED80 $499, EQ5 with dual axis motors $799, Home Modified Toucam $200, Nebulosity capture software $50 and a free photo editor.

Do you actually image yourself or are you basing your expertise on what you have read?

Go for it, Have fun, I am.

skeltz (Rob) · #34 12-07-2008, 07:46 PM

Jeez doug what does it take to get into your head the malin awards are for the best astro images?I f you don,t think you have a chance ...dont enter and don,t complain.
I myself think its great because it gives me goals to aspire to and reach ...or try!
It challenges us to produce better images...or at least try to,it gives some of us aspirations to do our best!
It seems to me nowdays it is not the whinging pom syndrome but more of the whinging aussie syndrome.
The competition showcases our best and gives us goals to shoot for.You remind me of one of my favourite quotes:Excuses are only made for failure ,no one ever made a excuse for success!!
clear skies all...cheers

rogerg (Roger) · #35 12-07-2008, 07:52 PM

I've run an astrophotography comp in the past. I found it impossible to cater for different levels of equipment/money. I don't know how that can be fairly done and balanced against personal skill. I found that entry level people didn't feel encouraged to join in because of the competition, which defeated the purpose of the competition.

I think astrophotography is different to normal photography competitions in that there is much less flexibility on composition, less room to be artistic, etc. So I think that results in astrophotography do come down to the quality of equipment much more so than in normal photography. It's harder to offset the effects of lesser quality equipment with creativity and the like.

I don't complain about astrophotography competitions such as this one, because I don't have a better solution.

Roger.

madtuna (Steve) · #36 12-07-2008, 07:53 PM

Mr Malin would be turning in his grave..if he read this thread.

oh yeah..and if he was dead

avandonk · #37 12-07-2008, 08:13 PM

This is why I never bother to enter any competition. I do imaging for my own pleasure and if someone else finds the image appealing that is good. I am very sorry folks but it is about getting better than yourselves.

As an aside we all can enjoy the superb images that are produced by the 'best' but one day I will beat them!

this is my 'best' so far

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~fmlee/lmcmos_hdr.jpg

Bert

Hagar (Doug) · #38 12-07-2008, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerg

I've run an astrophotography comp in the past. I found it impossible to cater for different levels of equipment/money. I don't know how that can be fairly done and balanced against personal skill. I found that entry level people didn't feel encouraged to join in because of the competition, which defeated the purpose of the competition.

I think astrophotography is different to normal photography competitions in that there is much less flexibility on composition, less room to be artistic, etc. So I think that results in astrophotography do come down to the quality of equipment much more so than in normal photography. It's harder to offset the effects of lesser quality equipment with creativity and the like.

I don't complain about astrophotography competitions such as this one, because I don't have a better solution.

Roger.

Thanks for this post Roger. It really says it all. It was the original intent of the thread but has certainly drifted sideways into a slanging match and again I am guilty. The real intent was to possibly highlight some of the shortcomings that have been posted on this and other forums.
Thanks again

Time to lock this thread as it has gone on long enough and is getting quite nasty.

ving (David) · #39 12-07-2008, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rally

David,

Re your Alien Bug

Thats the spirit.
And you know what ? - you might well have a really good chance of being selected.
It would be creative, involve Astro and if its all in focus (that makes it technically difficult) and if well composed is worthy of merit and that should be within anyone's budget who could contemplate entering !

Good luck - I look forward to seeing your entry.

Rally

OK, YOU TALKED ME INTO IT...

lol. i have a eucalyptus tip bug nymph pic that will suit this perfectly

Hagar (Doug) · #40 12-07-2008, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avandonk

This is why I never bother to enter any competition. I do imaging for my own pleasure and if someone else finds the image appealing that is good. I am very sorry folks but it is about getting better than yourselves.

As an aside we all can enjoy the superb images that are produced by the 'best' but one day I will beat them!

this is my 'best' so far

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~fmlee/lmcmos_hdr.jpg

Bert

Very nice image Bert You win

Not much point in me posting anymore images. Comments will be sparse I think.