Price Discrepency

[Night Owl]

Originally Posted by tbentley

As a salesman and consumer...

I will never rip a customer off but not every customer pays the same price, my job is to find the highest price that the customer is happy to pay....

If they will need my expertise before and/or after the sale then they pay a premium for that. The advice is a service, just like mowing a lawn, and should be paid for.

What really bugs me is when a customer milks you dry for information before the sale and then goes to someone else to save themselves a couple of bucks....

Once you begin asking for advice, this is distinct from asking for specifications or details, I think you have some obligation to purchase from that supplier....

The level of obligation is dependant on the amount and level of advice you get. The more advice the more you should be willing to pay....

Once the price differential exceeds your obligation you are free to shop elsewhere, it shows that the seller doesn't know his customer even though he may know his product.
Just my 2 cents worth anyway.
Travis

Hmm, let me get this straight... A salesman can find the highest price a customer is willing to pay, but if a customer does the same to a salesman he's a penny pinching scrooge and deserves what he gets! How do you spell hypocrisy! Oh man, some guys just can't help hanging themselves!

And its even better, apparently if you ask for advice about something they want to sell you are then under some non existant fantasy obligation to then pay what they want for it! Holy smoke, next retailers will be charging admission fees, and pay by the minute advice, but only after you give them your credit card details. How dare a customer expect 'free' information about a product or its suitablity!

Oh, I forgot that retail customers are the cash cows of the retailers, and must be milked for all they are worth. And heaven forbid if a cash cow ever breaks free of being milked, and goes to another dairy. It might start a stampeed.

And I thought talking about mowing the lawn was a pretty poor alternative to actually mowing it. But some people expect to be paid for talking about mowing the lawn! Man that's rich!

I should start a company on the strength of this arguement and call it something like "Jim's Verbal Mowing"! I could charge even more because it would be environmentally friendly, as it wouldn't actually use any two stroke fuel. Hmmmmm, value adding.

I'm not a very good cash cow, and I'm proud of it. And I've got the saving to prove it.

[madtuna (Steve)]

Originally Posted by Night Owl

.....and call it something like "Jim's Verbal Mowing"! I could charge even more because it would be environmentally friendly, as it wouldn't actually use any two stroke fuel.....

oh damn! I just said "lol" outloud..I spend way to much time in forums

[Zuts]

Hi Guys,

Sometimes I shop at MSY (cheapest computer shop in Sydney). Usually there is a line of around 50 people waiting to buy something. MSY is a great shop for people who know exactly what they want and want it now and at the cheapest price possible. However they offer no advice at all and will offer no pointers on compatability at all. If it doesnt work in your system then bad luck. if its the wrong choice then bad luck. Maybe a better option at a lower price forget it, you wanted it.

If it is broken then no problem you can return it, warranty no problem.

They offer a bare bones service.

When I shop for telescope gear then i like to talk about what i want to buy and ask are there any other options. If i am making a wrong choice then i expect to be told. In an MSY style telescope shop I could walk in and say i want that 16 inch OTA and i want that cheap alt az mount to put it on to take some photos. They would say credit card please.

I go to the local telescope shop quite often and ask advice. People are only human. If I never ever got anything there then why should they give a rats about my problems and offer me free advice about what would best suit my stated goals. It would be, god, here comes that bloke again, i wish he would bugger off and try ebay or something.

Sure there is a line, I wont pay too much over what something is worth, and if i had much more experience than what i have now maybe i would welcome an MSY telescope shop.

As far as the rental argument is concerned, well some shops have no stock. I like to see what i buy and not have to wait when i want it. I also dont like being served out of the back of a truck. Service and availability costs money. That's why for example some restuarants cost more than others, you pay for a level of service.

Try going into Doyle's in Sydney and when they bring the menu tell the waiter that you can get the flake down at the local chippie for 5 bucks and what is he going to do about it ......Why should telescope shops be any different?

Anyay thats my 2 bobs worth.

Paul

[AJames]

Price is based on supply and demand, but also on competition.
Frankly anyone offering a telescope at a cheaper price either is undercutting the opposition, had a fault with the merchandise, or is willing to sell goods at a lower margin.
As a consumer, everyone should be checking around for the best price. While the niceties of having customer service, service with a smile or even annual "sales", the bottom line is what you are prepared to fork out for the goods.
In the end, the market forces will sort everything out, and customers not happy with the price will often use their own feet. As for any thing else, the rest is merely a window dressing chimera.

Comment: The biggest and best discrepancy of course is "Pssssstt... wanna buy an <insert your equipment here> dirt cheap..." or even better "acquisitions freely obtained". Ahem. (...but sadly not a good idea - mainly because you don't get a warrantee these days!)

aka. Fagan (gotta pick a pocket or two...)

[Rodstar (Rod)]

I see no point in bagging individual vendors for the prices they set. They are entitled to charge as much as they want. It is their democratic right. The Trade Practices Act, which is a very well thought out set of laws which has stood the test of time, makes no attempt to govern this area.

If the consumer does not do their homework and establish what the market price for an item is (and with the easy availability of pricing information on the www there is no difficulty in doing this), then that is the consumer's choice. I can't see any point in blaming the vendor.

I don't see any astro vendors rolling in money. I doubt any of them are sipping champagne and feasting on caviar on their luxury yachts. The Australian asto industry is tiny, and the capacity to make a quid will always be very limited indeed. The retail sector in most instances runs on extremely tight margins.

A mark up of 25% from one vendor to the next is miniscule compared with many other industries. The jewellry industry routinely marks its items up by 400-500% on cost price. Have you recently purchased jewellry with a 75% mark down? You probably still paid 100% above cost price.

A real evil can sometimes be done by predatory pricing, where a larger vendor in an industry sells items below cost price at one of its stores (able to do so because of its large empire of stores), so as to cause the little guy down the road to go out of business. So, sometimes lower prices are not necessarily fair or good.

My only complaint (which the Trade Practices Act does address) is if vendors conspire together to artificially inflate prices across the industry, something which may well happen, for example, amongst some petrol stations. In that regard, given the ready availability of competitively priced astro gear from the US, any Australian dealer which inflates its prices far above market prices does so at its peril. That is the reality of market forces.

Rather than blaming a vendor for what you consider overpricing, vote with your wallet. Over time, that vendor will have to be more realistic about their prices, or go out of business.

[Starkler (Geoff)]

Originally Posted by Rodstar

My only complaint (which the Trade Practices Act does address) is if vendors conspire together to artificially inflate prices across the industry

Or when one distributor has a dealer network carved up into territories where no dealer can sell into another's territory.

When local prices appear way out of line with US pricing you try the US dealer only to be told they are not permitted to sell to you due to the dealer agreement.
I know of at least two distributors of astro gear that do this, one of which has a sole distributor in oz, so they can basically charge what they like.

From the land that champions free trade, it looks very anti competitive to me.

[Rodstar (Rod)]

In that instance, Geoff, the sole distribution rights for a territory have been acquired at a price.

From the manufacturer's point of view, they want to ensure their product is made available in as many countries as possible, and a way to get distributors for as much of the world as possible is to give a prospective distributor the reassurance that if they go to the trouble of setting themselves up in a new territory, the distributor will not find that they are being undercut by another distributor from outside the territory.

Of course, in that instance, we are talking about a single product. The manufacturer of course could choose to only sell their product directly from the factory, in which case all purchasers throughout the world would be stuck with the same price, plus extra freight for those situated far away.

[harwayharry (Wayne)]

Originally Posted by Karls48

It really pays off to buy things up to $100 price tag from overseas. Even with postage charges you are well ahead. Few recent purchases: T- ring adaptor for Pentax $16.73, M42 adaptor for Pentax-$14.96, 12X AA 2600mAh Ni-MH rechargeable batteries $14. Those prices include postage and represents 60 to 380% saving on prices in Australia excluding postage. If you have to use mail order, savings are even bigger.

Karl - those figures you quote are great - obviously I'm doing it wrong.

Just bought a 2" filter from the US and postage alone was more than you quote, Also have 2 EP's & 2 adapter rings coming - postage via USPS over $30.

How about sharing some more detail on your secret?

On the main subject, there are risks when you buy direct from OS - the filter I was talking about above came from Ace Photo Digital and was NOT NEW - obviously a used or demo item with a damaged thread. Now I have to go through all the hassles of trying to make a claim (some suppliers don't even answer when you complain).

[tbentley]

Originally Posted by Night Owl

Hmm, let me get this straight... A salesman can find the highest price a customer is willing to pay, but if a customer does the same to a salesman he's a penny pinching scrooge and deserves what he gets! How do you spell hypocrisy! Oh man, some guys just can't help hanging themselves!

I don't think you quite understood what I was saying the Night Owl, I never said that a customer shouldn't negotiate. Any consumer that doesn't try to negotiate is a fool and will, at some stage or another, find themselves taken advantage of by an unscrupulous dealer.

Originally Posted by Night Owl

And its even better, apparently if you ask for advice about something they want to sell you are then under some non existant fantasy obligation to then pay what they want for it!

I never said that you should pay what they want. I said that "Once the price differential exceeds your obligation you are free to shop elsewhere, it shows that the seller doesn't know his customer even though he may know his product." This obligation that I speak of is borne out of your core values, kind of like cutting a mate some slack when he's being a prick 'cause he helped you move house the other week. It's as much about making concessions relative to how much you feel they have helped you out. No help = no obligation.

Originally Posted by Night Owl

How dare a customer expect 'free' information about a product or its suitablity!

Now I specifically stated "asking for advice, this is distinct from asking for specifications or details". What you are referring to clearly comes in the latter category. A customer has a right to know exactly what they are buying without exception. You have (deliberately or otherwise) mis-interpreted what I said.

Originally Posted by Night Owl

Oh, I forgot that retail customers are the cash cows of the retailers, and must be milked for all they are worth. And heaven forbid if a cash cow ever breaks free of being milked, and goes to another dairy. It might start a stampeed.

Again you are misinterpreting me. I said "highest price that the customer is happy to pay", note the word happy. No-one is talking about milking anyone for all they are worth, that would not make anyone happy. The kind of behaviour you are talking about is very uncommon in my opinion and generally doesn't last long because, as you say, all the cows go to another dairy (or just don't give milk) and the business goes broke or changes its ways.

Originally Posted by Night Owl

And I thought talking about mowing the lawn was a pretty poor alternative to actually mowing it. But some people expect to be paid for talking about mowing the lawn! Man that's rich!

Facetious little bugger aren't you! (Trying to be humorous, no insult intended.) Who deserves to be paid better, the bloke who shows up twice a month and just mows your lawn, regardless of the fact it is slowly dying, or the guy that will mow your lawn and tell you it needs fertilising, weeding and your retic is malfunctioning? Do you truly believe that the guy doing the most work should only be remunerated as well as the guy doing the least? should everyone be treated equally even though they do not behave equally? Wars have been fought on that subject, my friend, and most of the communist regimes are either dead or changing.

Originally Posted by Night Owl

I'm not a very good cash cow, and I'm proud of it. And I've got the saving to prove it.

And I'm glad you do. As I stated in my prior post "If they can save a significant amount then that's fine, it means I don't really know my market, but not for a few bucks." I'm sure you research very well by yourself before deciding on a product and don't need the extra advice some retailers offer, therefore you are right in not wanting to pay it. I'm equally sure you wouldn't forgo rewarding any assistance to save $5 on a $5k purchase, you don't strike me as being that obnoxious.
I personally am quite happy that everyone else is not as self-sufficient as you because I do need the help (although IIS is often the best source) and am willing to pay for it. If I and others don't then these places will close, competition dies and we all have less choice and will end up paying more.
I'm sure we actually see things very similarly, just that we have different experiences. If you don't reward excellence all you end up with is mediocrity.

Travis

PS - I don't work in retail (but have briefly before) so my knowledge comes mostly from industrial type sales, often $200k+. The principles still apply the same, just that the stakes are higher.

[Night Owl]

[quote=tbentley;297768]I don't think you quite understood what I was saying the Night Owl.....,

What you said was....

"What really bugs me is when a customer milks you dry for information before the sale and then goes to someone else to save themselves a couple of bucks. If they can save a significant amount then that's fine, it means I don't really know my market, but not for a few bucks. Those types are really just mean spirited, tight-arsed scrooges and deserve everything they get (and generally get everything they deserve in the end.)"

You said that after you stated this...

"I will never rip a customer off but not every customer pays the same price, my job is to find the highest price that the customer is happy to pay."

I think you made your point very clear.

You are quite prepared to MILK the last possible dollar out of your customers on an idividual basis. But you also made it clear that you don't like them to find the lowest price that you are happy to pay, but you don't mind finding the highest price the customer is happy to pay.

All the rest of your diatribe is an attempt to cover up the above basic fact, which you stated, not me.

There is an old saying...

"It is better to remain silent and appear a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt." No offence intended, just for a witty reposte for the sake of the debate.

[xstream (John)]

Gentleman! Remember, keep it civil or this thread will be closed.

[wasyoungonce (Brendan)]

Another must "subscribe to" thread

There are some many these days!

[tbentley]

Now, Night Owl, you are not just misunderstanding me you are deliberately trying to misrepresent what I have said. I stand by exactly what you have quoted, just not how you have chosen to paraphrase it.
My job is to get the customer to pay the highest price he is happy with. If they aren't happy with paying it, I haven't done my job because there will be no return sales. If I charge too little I'll make lots of sales but no profit.
At no stage did I state that I dislike them finding the lowest price I will sell for. I said that I didn't like them using one seller for information and then buying elsewhere for an insignificant saving. I even stated that if the saving is significant I have no problem with it. You quoted me on it. Read the quote properly, I take the blame if they do that as I don't know my customer well enough.
I have no objection to them trying to find the lowest price I am willing to sell for, but when they do I consider all of the factors involved. These include but are not limited to: the cost of the goods; the market price; the time and effort invested or likely to be invested in the sale; the cost of holding stock; the potential changes in the cost of goods for future supply (customers expect fairly consistent pricing, not jumping around every time the $A moves); the quality of the goods versus the market average; administration costs; reliability; other market issues; etcetera, etcetera. It is clear to me that you really have no idea of the real cost of an item is to a company, as opposed to it's cost price, most people don't have to think about it. It's also why a lot of businesses fail, they don't know their real costs.
At the end of the day the customer always has the final say. If you aren't happy to buy at reasonably negotiated terms then don't. Walk away and buy somewhere else or do without. There is almost no instance when a customer is forced to buy at the sellers terms. You can always choose not to buy and the consequences of that choice are yours also.
You may like to play the poor little victim buyer who is taken advantage of by the mean, nasty seller. It just doesn't work that way. If you spend too much then it's because you made the decision to do so, not the seller. He has no power in the transaction, the power lies within your needs and desires and your ability to control them. The only person you can be victim to is yourself.
Only you can make the decision as to what you value. If you want something now and are not happy about paying extra to the guy who has stock then the choice is yours. Buy it and get over the money or wait and save yourself the few bucks. Don't expect both, that's called being greedy.
I can see that you choose not to see my side of the argument. I certainly understand where you're coming from as I have allowed my emotions to override my common sense on a few purchases. But that only makes me upset at myself, not the retailer. I choose to take that power upon myself. I am no victim.
As for the quote, I like it and have often heard it directed at me. But I will always hold that the greatest fool is the one who keeps a closed mind. Might be Confucious who said that, don't know really. Perhaps you can help me oh wise owl?
Travis

PS - Sorry, rereading this it comes off a little nasty. That is not my intention at all. I guess debates can often come off that way.

[tbentley]

Originally Posted by xstream

Gentleman! Remember, keep it civil or this thread will be closed.

Nothing but civil xstream. I have no issue with what Night Owl is saying and I don't think he is taking any offense from me. Difference of opinion that's all. Good natured debate. What democracy is made of!
Travis

[hector (Andrew)]

Hi All
I may ask a question of you Night Owl
Do you do the WORST job possible for you and/or your employer.
That seems to be what you are asking the sales people to do when attempting to deal with the public. The sales persons JOB is to make MONEY (call it what it is) for the company they work for. If the salesperson does not attempt to make money he or she is NOT DOING THEIR JOB.
The decision to buy is made by the person wanting the item not the salesperson, BUT the salesperson JOB is to get the BEST POSSIBLE price for the appliance and still make the customer HAPPY. It is all about having a happy customer. If the client is not happy they will not buy. If they are happy they will buy and the salesperson has done their job.
In the mentioned case of the Telescope equipment with a dramatic difference in price I would not blame the client for purchasing from the lower priced retailer. That retailer with the higher price has lost touch with potential custom. Having higher overheads or a larger showroom DO NOT make the difference in price acceptable. You are correct that is greed.
Please dont confuse a average salesperson doing their job to the FEW unscrouplous people who give the profession of sales a bad name. By all means shop around, I even tell my clients to do this. If I am just quoting a price and I am not competitive then fine shop elsewhere. If I have taken the time to assist you in making the correct selections for the items you wished to purchase (based on you knowing little about the item you wanted) then please give curtesy, and see if I can do better on the price. If I cant then again shop elsewehere. If I can match or better the price then I have made a sale I worked hard to make.
Sorry for sounding preachy I dont mean to.

[tbentley]

Hear, hear Hector. Exactly what I was trying to get across.
TB

[xstream (John)]

Not a problem Travis.

Just a friendly reminder before it gets out of hand.

Originally Posted by tbentley

Nothing but civil xstream. I have no issue with what Night Owl is saying and I don't think he is taking any offense from me. Difference of opinion that's all. Good natured debate. What democracy is made of!
Travis

[Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)]

Maybe I'm seeing this differently. I get the feeling that vendor #2 doesn't normally deal in the item at hand, but thinks that it would be worth his/her while to buy the item from vendor#1 at that vendors' RRP, and then on-sell it covering their costs plus make a meek profit.

Just a thought.

[matt]

In my mind it comes down to simple free market forces.

A salesman has a job to do: sell a product for the best price possible, for his boss/business and himself.

A potential buyer has a job to do: acquire the product he needs at the best price he can. (and that's assuming you can be bothered always pushing for the lowest price!)

Somewhere in between is the price they'll possibly agree on based on how much the salesman knows about his product, what price range he's willing to show a little flexibility on...and what the market is willing to spend on various items etc

It's then up to the buyer to do his research and decide how badly he wants the product and how much he's willing to pay, based on similar market factors that the salesman has had to be aware of, and to put a value on the salesman's knowledge and advice.

At the end of the day, you can always buy a product somewhere else if you're not happy with what you are being offered as a deal.

I don't get too worked up if I can't 'talk' a salesman down to the price I want to pay. If I think I was making a fair offer (based on extensive research) and the salesman doesn't go for it...then I'll buy somewhere else if I can find the item at that price. And have a little chuckle while doing so

But there also comes a time when I have to be willing to accept that the price they are offering is fair. And that's based (again) on a lot of factors, none the least being the convenience of having the item in stock right there and then when I want it...

Shop around...do your research.

Just my 2c worth

[mick pinner]

Chris, both vendors have dealt with this range of products for a while.
My original post was not to say that a vendor cannot charge what they like, of course they can, but if they do their research on price as we do then why bother advertising something so much dearer than an identical product.