The world is stuffed.... - Page 2

iceman (Mike) · #21 01-06-2005, 11:30 PM

I think the "let's move to mars" is more of a joke, but I do believe what we've done to the Earth is shocking and I don't know how we can recover.

The Earth took 5 billion years to get to this point. Man has been here (in its current resource-hungry capacity) for a few hundred years, and look what we've done. Imagine the next 200-300 years!? It's quite inconceivable for me to imagine what we're leaving for the next generations. Until we start pushing for the use of reusable energy (the sun, wind etc) then we're just pushing ourselves further towards self-destruction.

It's quite sad really, what man has done. Destroy wildlife, nature, other species. I'm sure in a way it's just natural evolution - the top of the food chain looks after himself.

But only 20,000 years ago we were not much more than apes. What form is evolution going to take us in the next 1,000 years, if we've still got an Earth to call home?

fringe_dweller · #22 01-06-2005, 11:38 PM

Personally I blame all the cows and sheep in NZ for the greenhouse effect - heheh

only joking! saw that movie recently - the 'day after tomorrow' or something or rather (yes i am the last person in the universe to see it i know) i dont like the look of those supercells tooo much!
Fringey

fringe_dweller · #23 01-06-2005, 11:48 PM

But it must be said the earth has been poisonous to life more often than not! nature is pretty good at trashing planets as well! One big series of eruptions or one super volcano can spew more crap into the atmosphere than we ever have so far! Its like in the movie 28 days - earth would just returning to normal!
Fringey

beren · #24 02-06-2005, 12:34 AM

Check this environmental tragedy ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asi...fic/678898.stm

http://enrin.grida.no/aral/aralsea/e...rsea/arsea.htm

iceman (Mike) · #25 02-06-2005, 03:22 AM

Just terrible Stuart.. Didn't Saddam Hussein do a similar thing in the swamp lands of Iraq? The "rebels" used them as hideouts, so Saddam poisened the whole area and killed off everything, so now it's just desert.

trufflehunter (Wayne Robinson) · #26 02-06-2005, 05:55 PM

The Aral Sea is a tragedy on two levels. Firstly it's a tragedy due its very existence. Secondly it's a tragedy because so few people are aware of it.

...thirdly, it's a tragedy because of the complete and exasperating complacency it engenders.

I have to stop here. Sorry. Please don't get me started.

h0ughy (David) · #27 02-06-2005, 07:08 PM

Since we are so doomed we should sell everything we have , buy the buggest (NZ for biggest) telescope we can and move to the mountains, and live out the rest of our existance doing the thing we really like

mind you I don't know how much I will get for the wife and kids

wavelandscott (Scott) · #28 02-06-2005, 10:20 PM

I have enjoyed reading these posts from my well lit, electrically heated house as I wear my baby sealskin slippers, drink my GMO sweetened soft drink and smoke my thirld world grown/harvested and wrapped by exploited labour cigar...while my wife drives one of our luxary 4 wheel drives .5 km to get a McD take away meal for my obese children...remind me to have one of my exploited household domestic staff water my yard before I have them deported before I have to pay them (below award level wage of course)...

What fun...

Seriously though, in grad school I did a fair amount of work on climate change and the impact on agricultural production...there is a lot of conflicting data on the topic in particular as to whether or not things are getting warmer and if so is it a bad thing...I won't be drawn into an arguement on that subject...most of the models I've seen showed a warming and a shifting in arable areas...some people who used to be wet get dry and some people who are dry/cold get wet and warm...total food production didn't seem to change much but fruit trees become very popular in Canada!...

My 2 cents...climate change is pretty constant through the history of the planet...again there is lots of arguement on if the speed of change is growing...is it man made or natural???

I will say that I don't think the "Malthusian's" are correct we are not doomed...and no, I will not eat soylent green (it is made from people)...so in my opinion the sky is not falling yet...

I don't know how or why but, I think that human kind will find a way to survive...our monkey brains have shown that we are a resilient and inventive (destructive to) lot and I think whether through serendipity or hard work that things will work out okay in the end...call me pollyanna but, that is what I beleive...

Sounds like my wife is back with my Supersize meal...better go, I've got to eat some beef and throw away some paper packaging

gaa_ian (Ian) · #29 02-06-2005, 10:34 PM

Well I voted for ...It will get better ...why ?
Over the last 20 yrs I've have seen a big shift in awareness.
I was personally involved in the Franklin & Wet tropics campaigns.
Both great victories & turning points in public awareness.
I now work for a large multinational corporation (unthinkable to me 20trs ago !) I see attitudes changing in the corporate world too.
Environment Health & Safety is a core value for the company I work for (a company with 80,000 employees worldwide)
Yes, many things are still wrong, but we have come a long way since the 80's

janoskiss (Steve H) · #30 02-06-2005, 11:11 PM

The main (environmental) problem is that we use a lot of energy to sustain our way of life (and to keep producing more people who will do likewise). We need to become conscious of the impact of our way of life on the rest of our world, e.g., turning on the heater out of habit; driving big heavy vehicles; using the dryer instead of the clothesline; and so on. I'm guilty...

It looks like I might have a decent income soon, so I'm going to switch to Green Power (even though it's gonna remain a bit of a joke until some investors with a lot of $$ decide to take it seriously).

ballaratdragons (Ken) · #31 02-06-2005, 11:13 PM

Do you realise Henry Ford is the biggest contributor to the mess we live in now.

He invented the production line and helped do away with the village cobbler, village blacksmith, village baker etc, etc.

I think the 'Amish' have it right! I would like to live that way.

jjjnettie (Jeanette) · #32 03-06-2005, 09:49 AM

David Suzuki said it in a nutshell. Consumerism will be the end of us all. Hardly anyone in the developed world wants to go back to the bad old days of " Doing it Yourself "
We want it all, and we want it now.
We hop in the car to drive 1/4 a km up to the shops when a brisk walk would be best for our health. We wear clothes made from synthetic fibres when we all know that cotton/wool is better as well as renewable . We eat food that is so processed that it needs added vitamins and minerals to make it nutritious. We can't be bothered to clean dirty nappies, so we make the poor kid wear a plastic one, that won't break down biologically, till that little kids great great grand kids are born. We use solvents and cleansers instead of good old elbow grease.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I've not ever done the same things. The convenience of all the products on the supermarket shelf is a boon to everyone. But is the ecological cost of it worth this convenience?
It is my belief that consumerism won't slow down, it will come to a grinding halt the day we use up all the earths resources.
It is our responsibility to teach our children/grand kids, how to do it for themselves. Little things like learning to sew, cook and grow veges, even how grow and kill your own meat, basic building skills etc etc because the day will come when it will be those that have these basic skills that will survive.
As was said before in this thread, The Amish have the right idea, when the sh*t hits the fan, it won't make any difference to them.
A couple of good books to read on the subject of the end of the world, are-:
" Stark " and " This Other Eden " both by Ben Elton. Wickedly funny, and highly relevant.

acropolite (Phil) · #33 03-06-2005, 10:16 AM

gaa ian wrote

Quote:

Over the last 20 yrs I've have seen a big shift in awareness.

You're right there has been an increase in awareness but there hasn't been a corresponding increase in action. I would have thought that 20+ years down the track we would be starting to do something to address problems that could be contributing to climate change rather than just being aware and further studying the effects... I see more trees being chopped down, more pollution, more corruption, at least in my state, perhaps it's different in the rest of Australia...

slice of heaven · #34 03-06-2005, 11:02 AM

I hope the Amish let you keep your dob BD, but upgrading to goto would be out of the question.
At least there's some honest people here that admit their responsible.
Blaming previous generations is a cop out.
Awareness is growing, especially in kids.We dont have a recycling bin in our rubbish collection yet but due to pressure from the kids awareness of the problems being created , they've 'demanded' we recycle the plastic,glass and cardboard etc here at home. That has to be a step in the right direction for their future if their concerned enough to take some action.

ving (David) · #35 03-06-2005, 02:09 PM

comes down to individuals tho slice. most kids'll still throw thier trash on the ground. and Cheryl and I have problems convincing Bec that we should recycle too

It'll all work when the majority are interested. But humans are by nature lazy creatures

slice of heaven · #36 03-06-2005, 02:16 PM

So true Ving,So true

ving (David) · #37 03-06-2005, 02:20 PM

i know... so wise for one so young

Brendan · #38 03-06-2005, 02:30 PM

this is a deeply phylisophical question, I would have to say unless we as a species change our behviour, we will go the way of the dinosaurs but leave the planet in a lot worse shape.

The truly scary thought is as resources become scarcer and population numbers swell, will we suffer the same fate as those animals who we consider lesser species i.e. Mice will attack each other if over croweded.

I think the ultimate solution is to combine strategies of planetary settelment and increase in resource reuse.

Brendan

ving (David) · #39 03-06-2005, 02:35 PM

there are probably a few people out there that would eat another of thier kind. I'd say we'd be safe from vegetarians tho

I think something will happen before we get to the stage of eating eachother brendan. we will either figure out food shortage problems or kill each other in war first...

Mark Elkington · #40 03-06-2005, 02:45 PM

Did somebody say "soapbox"? :-)

It’s Not Easy Being Green

It turns out the frog was right, although he wasn’t singing about the environment.

The war on plastic shopping bags is another rearrangement of the deck chairs. The bags issue at least impacts at a personal, everyday level. It even costs us a few dollars. But disposable shopping bags account for just over one percent of landfill. The reusable alternatives amount to a polypropylene rug under which to sweep a greater problem: the packaging of the items inside them. Relaxing in the green glow of these bags are consumers who are high-maintenance but think they’re low maintenance (to misappropriate a phrase).

Shrink-wrap over everything we buy is one thing. I recently joined with friends on a four-wheel drive weekend: kids, tents, bacon and eggs. And 100 litres of nonrenewable fossil fuel per vehicle, which we converted into about 300kg of greenhouse gas. I’m not picking on recreational vehicles particularly. Your return flight to Melbourne for the weekend used a similar amount of fuel per head. Every time you put on the air con rather than a jumper you become part of the problem. In your 30 square eveless heated towel-rail downlight-constellation ducted-air McMansion.

Take a drive (no, a bus) to the 2600 megawatt Bayswater Power Station, and boggle at the mountain of coal conveyor-fed direct from mine to furnace. Every time you flick a switch another kilogram of carbon goes up into the atmosphere.

There’s a disconnect between our lifestyle and its consequences. Assume for the moment that they’re right: the 97% of scientists who say that global warming heading towards catastrophic climate change is real, and greenhouse gas emissions from burning coal, oil, and gas are the primary cause. Decades hence our children’s children, living with this, will incredulously ask their grandparents, What were you thinking…? The epithet "future eaters" would be apt.

Greenhouse gases (primarily carbon dioxide) are invisible and easy to ignore. Smog from burning fossil fuel is obvious, alarming, and political. It gets attention. Now it’s been discovered that this form of visible pollution blocks sunlight and causes “global dimming”, i.e. less warming. Ironically, by fixing only the symptom, we’re letting off a handbrake on warming. Since the 70s oil shock, fossil fuel consumption has increased globally by 73%. Global reserves of oil, coal and gas are estimated in decades. The environment will run out before they do.

Cheap petrol is a sacred staple along with bread and milk. Educating people to act responsibly and sacrificially largely doesn’t work. User pays does. Petrol in Europe is about AU$1.70 a litre. In the US it’s a bit over AU$0.70. It’s no surprise then that North Americans consume 5 times more energy per capita than the global average. Environmentally the United States is the leading rogue state. Australia isn't far behind at nearly 70% of their levels.

Bob Carr talks green but capitulates to coal and private transport. The Howard government won’t ratify Koyoto because it’s bad for business. Bush is Big Oil. (But who elected them.) China and India are now rapidly industrialising, with few of the eco-restraints it’s taken the West a couple of centuries to begin to face up to.

Professor James Lovelock, author of the Gaia hypothesis and environmental icon, is now advocating an interim widespread switch to nuclear power. He says this is the only way to prevent crossing an irreversible climatic “tipping point”. Alternative renewable energy sources just won’t be ready in time. He’s now at loggerheads which much of the green movement.

Doomsday prophets have a bad track record. But the past is not always the key to the future.

© 2005 Mark Elkington (Sydney, Australia)

From: http://www.users.on.net/~elkos/