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Old 06-06-2022, 11:20 PM
Averton (P and C)
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Transit of a mystery satellite on 5 June 2022 at 23:44 UT

While capturing some white light images this morning an object started to transit the Sun.
It was traveling so quickly that by the time we had pressed record it had already travelled a significant distance across the disk.
It looks to be smaller than the ISS but larger than the many small Space X satellites.
We checked Stellarium that shows quite a few satellites but couldn't find anything there.
Tried transit finder and there was nothing there.
We are unsure what to check so its a mystery to us.
Any suggestions????


https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/8...22-at-2344-ut/
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  #2  
Old 07-06-2022, 09:01 AM
Dennis
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Nice recording.

Not knowing the exact orientation, one possible candidate could be a weather balloon.

Cheers

Dennis

EDIT:
I have just attached a photo of a weather balloon I grabbed back in 2007, with a Canon 400mm F5.6 lens.
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Click for full-size image (Canon EOS 5D Mark III - IMG_6450 Crop 800 FR.jpg)
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  #3  
Old 07-06-2022, 10:54 AM
Averton (P and C)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis View Post
Nice recording.

Not knowing the exact orientation, one possible candidate could be a weather balloon.

Cheers

Dennis

EDIT:
I have just attached a photo of a weather balloon I grabbed back in 2007, with a Canon 400mm F5.6 lens.

Thanks Dennis. Great shot of the balloon.

A couple of other people on CN have also suggested the same thing. So we are going with that theory
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Old 07-06-2022, 11:44 AM
AdamJL
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+1 to the balloon theory
you can almost see it oscillating.
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  #5  
Old 07-06-2022, 01:27 PM
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mura_gadi (Steve)
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Ah, but which balloon?

If it's Sunrise III, then it's a great shot to have!

Might be able to get the sub-orbital path of the balloon from the web and back date it... at a guess.
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Old 07-06-2022, 02:26 PM
AdamJL
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Ah, but which balloon?
this one
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Old 07-06-2022, 10:11 PM
Averton (P and C)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamJL View Post
+1 to the balloon theory
you can almost see it oscillating.

Yes Adam, when we originally captured the video we thought that some sort of motion of the shape itself was visible but couldn't work out what it was. The balloon theory fits perfectly.
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Old 07-06-2022, 10:12 PM
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Old 07-06-2022, 10:19 PM
Averton (P and C)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mura_gadi View Post
Ah, but which balloon?

If it's Sunrise III, then it's a great shot to have!

Might be able to get the sub-orbital path of the balloon from the web and back date it... at a guess.

Unfortunately that seems unlikely. From what we can see it's yet to launch and it is taking off in Sweden and landing in Canada having transited the Arctic. We are afraid that it is more likely just a regular mundane weather balloon.
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Old 08-06-2022, 08:29 PM
alw50 (Andrew)
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Out of curiosity, I had to go at figuring out the balloon path.

Took a while, but it was fun.

Is this (see pic) about where it would have been when you observed it?

Regards, Andrew
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Click for full-size image (balloon 220605 2344Z.jpg)
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Old 08-06-2022, 08:36 PM
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Did think about the artic bit after posting, but was too late.

You might also have some extra high altitude balloons due to SA rocket testing as well. But the Melbourne weather balloon should be a safe bet.
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Old 08-06-2022, 10:43 PM
Averton (P and C)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mura_gadi View Post
Did think about the artic bit after posting, but was too late.

You might also have some extra high altitude balloons due to SA rocket testing as well. But the Melbourne weather balloon should be a safe bet.

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Old 08-06-2022, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alw50 View Post
Out of curiosity, I had to go at figuring out the balloon path.

Took a while, but it was fun.

Is this (see pic) about where it would have been when you observed it?

Regards, Andrew

Out of even more curiosity, how the heck did you find out the information about balloon launches and narrow down to this one? Presumably its been launched from Melbourne Airport. Who is the owner of the balloon? BOM? The amateur call signs in the list pertain to what? Are they amateurs who were tracking the balloon or did you get met data on wind strength and directions to predict a path?

Judging by the marked position and the altitude given it is quite possibly the balloon in question. Great work Andrew!
PS. Thanks for doing this followup, its very cool!!
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Old 08-06-2022, 11:11 PM
alw50 (Andrew)
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Great, looks like I was on the right track.

Yes, BoM data was the starting point.

I'll explain in more detail tomorrow.

Andrew
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Old 08-06-2022, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by alw50 View Post
Great, looks like I was on the right track.

Yes, BoM data was the starting point.

I'll explain in more detail tomorrow.

Andrew

Definitely looks like the right track. Look forward to more explanation.
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  #16  
Old 09-06-2022, 08:57 AM
Dennis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alw50 View Post
Out of curiosity, I had to go at figuring out the balloon path.

Took a while, but it was fun.

Is this (see pic) about where it would have been when you observed it?

Regards, Andrew
Nice investigative work!

Cheers

Dennis
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Old 09-06-2022, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis View Post
Nice investigative work!

Cheers

Dennis

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Old 09-06-2022, 01:52 PM
alw50 (Andrew)
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Ok, more explanation.

Back in the recesses of the infinite dark past I worked at the BOM in Adelaide for four years going through university. I remembered that balloon launches were typically mid-morning. And also, a few years ago we did a little drive from Adelaide up the Birdsville Track and across to Longreach. Naturally, I visited the BOM outpost there, arriving just before they launched the morning balloon. So we watched that go up, and went inside the hut to see the radiosonde traces coming in in real-time.

So I checked the standard launch times for weather balloons: 2315Z and 1115Z. I figured it was pretty likely that this observation was a weather balloon.

It then occurred to me that, given that satellites, planes etc are all trackable online these days, why not weather balloons?

So I dug around, and found enough sources of data to put the information together.

I found an interesting write up of a rather well-developed balloon tracking project in the radio astronomy group of our SA astronomical society (which I joined a few months ago).
https://www.assa.org.au/resources/ra...loon-tracking/
This explains very clearly how you can build an antenna and a receiver to track balloons and collect data.
It seems that a lot of people do it, hence there is always tracking of weather balloons.
And also software, which I will come back to shortly.

I also found a website for glider pilots that harvests BOM data for weather balloon flights all around Australia.
https://slash.dotat.org/atmos/info.html
Graphical traces for the relevant time here:
http://slash.dotat.org/cgi-bin/atmos...20220606000000
And raw data here:
http://slash.dotat.org/cgi-bin/atmos...20220606000000
These show WSW-ish winds of about 30 knots. A comparatively pleasant day, for last week.

So that alone could give a pretty good idea of where a balloon was heading. One could use the data to calculate a path, but fortunately I discovered that I didn't need to do that.

The above-mentioned ASSA write up includes a link to this site:
tracker.sondehub.org
This tracks hundreds of balloons around the world.
This URL will show the Melbourne Airport site (the leftmost open circle):
https://tracker.sondehub.org/#!mt=Ma...2649,145.72266
This will immediately show any current or recent flights.
But because I was looking for one in the past I had to do a bit more work.
This involved clicking on that circle, and fetching historical data for June, which generates 30 odd dots on the map, representing the finishing points of all flights made so far in June.
So I had to figure out which was the relevant one.
From the glider data above, it wasn't hard to figure out that the finishing point would be somewhere to the east of the airport.
So I tried three or four, and came up with the right one. (There might be an easier way which I haven't found yet, being a beginner with the software.)
A link to the information for that flight is:
https://tracker.sondehub.org/T2250440
With some difficulty, it's possible to click on points on the path shown, to look at time and data at that point.
That's what I did for the picture that I posted yesterday.

Anyway, that was interesting, but the dot by dot search at the end is a minor PITA.
However, the PITA factor arises because I was searching for flights in the past.

The good news is that it is easy to find current flights.
You only have to use the site URL, or the Melbourne URL above, and it will show them immediately.

So that's a good way to check for balloon flights next time something like this happens!
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Old 09-06-2022, 10:54 PM
Averton (P and C)
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Hi Andrew,


Thanks for the excellent and detailed explanation of your investigation. We have followed through all of your links and found the information very interesting. In the end we just used your second last link to open up SondeHub Tracker and used the historical data button, found the correct balloon and traced its flight path.
As you pointed out, for some reason it is quite finicky to click on the flight path to get the data from each location but once you get the hang of it, its all good.

So we got the data with a little bit more accuracy on the time and plotted the location on google maps. This gave a distance from our observation location of 19.60km and a bearing of 36 degrees 13' 8" East of North.

Then Stellarium gave the azimuth and alt of the sun at the time of the observation as 37 degrees 38' 17.9" / 19 degrees 35' 57.4".

With the height given from the balloon data and our calculated distance to the balloon, trig gives an angle of 19 degrees 45'.

A bearing within a bit over 1 degree and an elevation within 10' seems pretty conclusive although we can't really identify where the errors are as the time of our capture is synchronised with network time and presuming all of the balloon data is reasonably accurate, there is a bit more error than you'd like.

However, a last bit of evidence is if you go to Tilting Sun software and calculate the angle of the sun at the time of observation, the path from west to east transcribed in the video matches the orientation of the sun from the software.

We rotate our camera so the image is orientated as per convention with North at the top and East at the left. This means that the west to east path of the balloon viewed from the ground has transited the image correctly.



Conclusion, you definitely found the mystery satellite/balloon


Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to work all this out and share the information!!
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  #20  
Old 10-06-2022, 07:59 AM
Dennis
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Such an enjoyable read about what appeared to be a "problem" that did not have an easy or straightforward "solution".

The subsequent collaboration and investigation reads like a detective novel that led to solving the balloon puzzle.

Cheers

Dennis
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