Amateur Astronomy Evolution 2017 and Beyond?

[bigjoe (JOSEPH)]

Originally Posted by ChrisV

Maybe not mainstream, but in the past year live imaging has become easier with the introduction of low cost sensitive CMOS cameras with low read noise PLUS good live stacking software.

Too right Chris .And go ZWO and companies like it!!
bigjoe

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

Rob,
Sorry to strongly disagree....
""
The only areas where amateurs still contribute meaningfully are bright star photometry and meteor observing.
""
I'm sure all the guys who contribute to BeSS and the SASER campaigns would join me in saying that the amateur spectroscopists can and do contribute significant data to many professional/ semi-professional spectral programs.
There is much much more amateur work which can be done, and I assure will continue to be appreciated by the professionals.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by Rob_K

I fell through the mirror the other night.....

Astro-imaging has fallen from its fad status of the early 2000’s, killed by a glut of new-generation cheap cameras and software that enabled any mug to produce Hubble-quality images with no effort or knowledge at all. These images threatened to sink internet astronomy forums with their sheer volume but in the end no-one was impressed and few people bothered anymore..... -

Sorry Rob, i believe you are way off base. The new generation cameras and software are true enablers. As one of your so called Mugs, and having come from a film background, i can testify to the new gears significantly reduced workload. Go and have a look at early film based astro images. I don't know if there are many imagers seeking to impress, more likely it is the challenge of what can be done from a backyard observatory. There should be room for everyone, regardless of how the tools evolve. The degree of technical understanding required to image today, with those cheap cameras and software, is way more difficult than printing a photo negative and holding back the Trapezium exposure with a wand.

[Rob_K]

Originally Posted by Merlin66

Rob,
Sorry to strongly disagree....
""
The only areas where amateurs still contribute meaningfully are bright star photometry and meteor observing.
""
I'm sure all the guys who contribute to BeSS and the SASER campaigns would join me in saying that the amateur spectroscopists can and do contribute significant data to many professional/ semi-professional spectral programs.
There is much much more amateur work which can be done, and I assure will continue to be appreciated by the professionals.

No Ken, you misunderstood, my post was in the "future". I fully agree with you about amateur spectroscopists today. Cheers mate!

[Rob_K]

Originally Posted by glend

Sorry Rob, i believe you are way off base. The new generation cameras and software are true enablers. As one of your so called Mugs, and having come from a film background, i can testify to the new gears significantly reduced workload. Go and have a look at early film based astro images. I don't know if there are many imagers seeking to impress, more likely it is the challenge of what can be done from a backyard observatory. There should be room for everyone, regardless of how the tools evolve. The degree of technical understanding required to image today, with those cheap cameras and software, is way more difficult than printing a photo negative and holding back the Trapezium exposure with a wand.

Geez guys, did you read my post? I'm not talking about today! Fully agree with you Glen but I thought we were talking about the evolution of amateur astronomy.

My feeling is that we're living in the sweetspot of amateur astronomy. We contribute data to astronomy science in so many areas, we are getting to continually push the limits of amateur astrophotography as the digital age marches on, we have affordable telescopes and so much more. But look at what is happening in professional astronomy. The sky coverage (the area where amateurs can assist) is growing. We see bigger & deeper space-based surveys as downlink speeds and processing powers are increased. If you take that to its natural conclusion, amateurs may be squeezed out, that's all I'm saying. Anyone who feels that won't happen has an equally valid point, it's just speculation!

Cheers -

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

- But you’ll never ever discover a comet or a supernova or a nova or an asteroid or a Jupiter-strike again.


Rob, I politely beg to differ. Read my signature and you will see why.
Amateurs now have access to professional instruments that they could never afford by themselves. I see no reason that this won't continue in the future, with amateurs able to get telescope time on space or moon based instruments. After the 10,000the KBO is discovered, the professionals may lose interest, allowing amateurs to take over the reigns.
The then long gone Hubble may well be viewed the same way that 18th century refractors are now.

[Rob_K]

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

- But you’ll never ever discover a comet or a supernova or a nova or an asteroid or a Jupiter-strike again.


Rob, I politely beg to differ. Read my signature and you will see why.
Amateurs now have access to professional instruments that they could never afford by themselves. I see no reason that this won't continue in the future, with amateurs able to get telescope time on space or moon based instruments. After the 10,000the KBO is discovered, the professionals may lose interest, allowing amateurs to take over the reigns.
The then long gone Hubble may well be viewed the same way that 18th century refractors are now.

Good points Ben and you could well be right. My concept is that it's downlink speeds and processing power that's limiting professional surveys and leaving a sizeable chunk of data gathering to amateurs. If you crank up speeds/power to ridiculous (normal if you live in the future LOL ) and chuck in developing satellite & camera technologies, then you could see cheap deep round-the-clock space-based surveys that'll pick up everything in all filters etc and the fully-automated pipeline will release results in near real-time.

They'll be unbeatable and it won't even be like today where you can still 'discover' things in survey databases (eg SOHO images, ASAS data etc) and hence my comment. But I could be 100% wrong - I think that might have happened once or twice before!!

Cheers -

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by Rob_K

Good points Ben and you could well be right. My concept is that it's downlink speeds and processing power that's limiting professional surveys and leaving a sizeable chunk of data gathering to amateurs. If you crank up speeds/power to ridiculous (normal if you live in the future LOL ) and chuck in developing satellite & camera technologies, then you could see cheap deep round-the-clock space-based surveys that'll pick up everything in all filters etc and the fully-automated pipeline will release results in near real-time.

They'll be unbeatable and it won't even be like today where you can still 'discover' things in survey databases (eg SOHO images, ASAS data etc) and hence my comment. But I could be 100% wrong - I think that might have happened once or twice before!!

Cheers -

Totally agree with you Robk.

To some extent that mirror you fell through is here now. Wide field low cost survey scopes are operating now as can be demonstrated by As-assn. They are getting vast amounts of data from 2 sites most everynight and data subtraction is making the process work very very well. They still request confirmation of their discoveries so there is at the moment a role for the amateur.

My last personal (15th) Supernova discovery was a year ago today in NGC5128. The past 12 months I have imaged thousands of galaxies for nix. But I have confirmed several for As-assn and thats the likely scenario for the next few years.

Soon to throw in the rapid development in AI and I think your mirror is spot on.

[Atmos (Colin)]

There are still and always will be ways that amateurs can add to the scientific community. It all comes down to the why that the astronomy profession works; there are considerably more data sets in the pipeline than there are telescopes to collect. There are some thing that just won't make it into that pipeline due to the cost outweighing the benefit.

A perfect example of this is with RR Lyrae stars (a variable star with less than 24 hour cycle) having a larger secondary cycle of 20-40 days. Studies like this consume a lot of time and to get anything real out of it you need to do this to multiple targets.

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by Rob_K

Good points Ben and you could well be right. My concept is that it's downlink speeds and processing power that's limiting professional surveys and leaving a sizeable chunk of data gathering to amateurs. If you crank up speeds/power to ridiculous (normal if you live in the future LOL ) and chuck in developing satellite & camera technologies, then you could see cheap deep round-the-clock space-based surveys that'll pick up everything in all filters etc and the fully-automated pipeline will release results in near real-time.

They'll be unbeatable and it won't even be like today where you can still 'discover' things in survey databases (eg SOHO images, ASAS data etc) and hence my comment. But I could be 100% wrong - I think that might have happened once or twice before!!

Cheers -

From my (limited) experience, it’s the data mining that holds them back. For example PANSTARRS can see down to magnitude 22, yet the discovery ‘hit rate’ at this level is low. I’ve discovered and followed several objects and sent the observations in to the MPC, yet the system never worked out that they were the same object. It took an email to them, containing all the observations together, to get a provisional discovery recognised. On top of those I succeeded with, there were about another ten that I observed, and that the big surveys would have surely seen, yet the system never made the connection to.

I still think amateurs will be able to beat the surveys. At present, the surveys only spend about 30 seconds imaging any particular region because they want to image the entire sky. An amateur will use a smaller telescope and focus on a tiny region with long exposures. This is why a private 690mm reflector at Siding Springs can beat twin 2m reflectors on top of a Hawaiian volcano. The technology will change, but the concept is the same.

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

There's another area ignored generally by the professionals which I'm sure will continue to be the domain of the amateur - measuring double stars....
It can be now be done with some accuracy with webcam type cameras using speckle imaging.
Florent Losse has for many years supported the amateur community with his REDUC software. Well worth trying!
http://www.astrosurf.com/hfosaf/
(Just tell him I sent you!)

[Sol-Skysailor (Sol)]

A request, actually 3 please:
(3= evolve, 2= revolt, 1=revolute)

1. CCD-strip mono astro EP camera, even a curved strip, or curve-adjustable!

All 1k interested in spectroscopy can sign a request/petition.
Or someone clever surely can design and manufacture. Or spec. it.
And why ever not a no-Bayer Camera, no need to deBayah nuffin’ just doan’ layah.

2. Laser Pointer. Legalised-no-fee for astronomy, by trained users max 3 concurrent/site.

Revolt. Poll. Petition. Draft a recommendation.

3. Teamwork here in Peace, in a positive environment (kindly, supportive, no putdowns, no ‘things’
that’ve needed a mod. to step in, or that’ve needed special warnings for the science forum).


If request ~ pray ~ prophesy, it might become a self-fulfilling... :-)

[Southskyscience (Team)]

Several great ideas! IIS is perfect for community collaboration. (Suavi, a special like :-) and Ben and Glen among others)

‘Open’ project subforums should be very effective, in gratitude of IIS, Wikipedia, NASA…. open for all to learn from.

Yes concur, in some cases institutions have to close part of their intellectual properties because their funding, often the individuals’ very job year to year, depends on competitiveness and chance. Much work is vested in preparing grant applications. In working with them we have to respect that.

Several avenues, it appears - perhaps like telescopes, we may have one, or more, or move from one to another:

1. IIS would be good for a) south celestial sky, b) multi-disciplinary, c) connecting with the ‘local’ community, d) cultivating science at home, e) contributing to Outreach.
   
   
2. Spectroscopy-specific (or any other field), see a number of forums and groups specifically for that. In niching out, please remember home in 1) and please remember south celestial objects.
   
   
3. Some Pro-Am campaign calls have great Pro-Am groups, such as SASER for the south (there are others), pick out what their members would focus on. Others are more general as in surveys....more details in other threads. Other opportunities: we can self-initiate and discover! No need to be 'the first', it's the fun of discovering for self/selves.
   
   
4. Possibilities of ‘individual projects’. Direct contacts with our local universities already have a road being paved, being laboured on, to be accessible and open. However in spectroscopy we are largely at the level of ‘should I start’. We need to narrow the gap, with a larger pool.
   
   Similarly……… we can have great fun returning to, or doing more of, other science activities.

In parallel with doing any of these, our role can be in Outreach, just because we are plumb right in an ideal spot on fertile ground for growing science.

Regards
Team

for volunteer gardeners growing star science :-)

[Slawomir (Suavi)]

Well, after a fair bit of reading, thinking, tossing ideas...eventually I've decided to give spectroscopy a go and ordered StarAnalyser 200, which will go inside the filter wheel. Now really looking forward to testing it.

P.S. Thank you Team for a special like

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

Suavi,
Well done mate, good call!
The 200 grating combined with an appropriate mono camera is very capable.
It will give you the "Spectroscopy 101" experience in processes the spectral images.
If we can assist just ask......

[Slawomir (Suavi)]

Thank you Ken for your kind offer. Will be a few more weeks before I will be able to test it.

[Terry B]

Good thread.
I only noticed it today so haven't replied.
I agree with Ken re spectroscopy. I've had my name on a few professional papers now because of pro/am spectroscopy cooperation.
The survey scopes are making amateur discoveries less likely but survey spectroscopy is much harder to achieve so there is still a good place for amateurs to confirm discoveries.
We just need the temperature to drop so it is feasible to actually use the scope again.

[PeterM]

Brilliant stuff guys keep it going! Best thread for a long time. Exoplanets are something BOSS are looking into at the moment as the BIG Supernova surveys start to dominate even more with the latest WDF survey - Wider, Deeper, Faster now reporting mag 20 Southern supernova - I think they maybe Skymapper at Siding Spring?

[xelasnave]

How many hours exposure would be too much.
Say you have group on the net, a thousand or more participants.
All with the same scopes filters cameras, to standardish somewhat.
So would the be any way of looking at dark spots (capturing) in the hubble wide field with members able to down load ten hours each... Could you expect anything. 10,000 hours exposure?
Alex

[beren]

Originally Posted by Slawomir

Well, after a fair bit of reading, thinking, tossing ideas...eventually I've decided to give spectroscopy a go and ordered StarAnalyser 200, which will go inside the filter wheel. Now really looking forward to testing it.

P.S. Thank you Team for a special like

Same for me, hoping to start my first steps in spectroscopy {with a star analyser} on the next clear night.