Melbourne incident

[AndrewJ]

Hmm, amazing how quick we are these days to judge with no information.

Regarding the guys with a baseball bat - I'd say they are probably aggressive thugs themselves who travel with their weapon,

Ref todays "news" after someone actually talked to em
( its called journalism )

The cousins had been heading to Alexandra Gardens to play baseball after a church gathering when they heard tyres screeching.

I only hope that the incident puts a blowtorch onto the out dated, out of touch legal system we still have, that lives in an esoteric world that ended 25 years ago. All other "industries" have had to reform, why not them?????

Andrew

[Tropo-Bob (Bob)]

Such a sad thing to happen. I hope victims and their families are given every possible consideration and assistance. My heart really goes out to them. I briefly meet a really nice couple who were later both killed in the Port Arthur tragedy.

I watch some crime documentaries on cable TV. I like seeing how crimes are solved and truth be told, I like that they catch up and put away some terrible people. What dismays me however, is even though the US punishments for crime seem so much more severe than in Australia, the crime rate there remains high and there is no shortage of new criminals. The harsh deterrents do not seem to work.

Poverty of course is the breeding ground of much crime. I recently saw a show claiming the Australian have the second highest incomes per person in the world. Surprising, we were second only to Switzerland.

If that be the case, is this as good as it gets? It seems that we will unfortunately always have an element in society doing terrible things. Indeed, according to the renowned NZ Dunedin University Study, about one in twenty of the population will have ongoing contact with the justice system during their lifetime. This is a depressing high figure.

[jenchris (Jennifer)]

Originally Posted by csb View Post
Regarding the guys with a baseball bat - I'd say they are probably aggressive thugs themselves who travel with their weapon, a baseball bat, in their car.
Stereotyping without sufficient info.
If someone had shot him (while on the way to the shooting range) who would have been the victim?
No one drove their vehicle out into the path of the perp.
Had they done so would they be heros?
No, he would have been done for damgerous driving because the terrorist hadn't yet killed anyone.
The magistrate should be done for assisting in the instigation of a crime. Or crimes.
The police stopped chasing him. Too dangerous. .... hmmm .
If he's stabbed someone, you're aiding and abetting by not stopping hi..

[csb (Craig)]

So they may not be thugs - I did say "probably". They seem to have actually responded appropriately - the driver's attitude and words made them wonder what he was going to do.

I didn't know what race the bat guy was until a previous post mentioned it. I formed my thoughts after seeing the video AND before their race was mentioned in this thread.

The video made me wonder who is driving around with a baseball bat. Baseball is not big in Australia. It is easily surmised that most baseball bats in cars are weapons; in a country that doesn't play much baseball.

Most Islanders I've met have not been thuggish types. Nice people actually.

[toc (Tim)]

I walk around the CBD most lunchtimes (I work on Elizabeth St, just down from Melbourne central) and I was going that way on Friday - I ended up going the other way to get some computer gear from CPL in North Melbourne.

I read on the ABC that he was granted bail by an "after-hours volunteer bail justice". WTF? Why would such a stupid thing exist? not only are 5 people dead, but now a person has to carry the guilt of such a horrific decision. Why would such critical life and death decisions be left to a volunteer? Boggles the mind.

[JA]

Originally Posted by toc

I read on the ABC that he was granted bail by an "after-hours volunteer bail justice". WTF? Why would such a stupid thing exist? not only are 5 people dead, but now a person has to carry the guilt of such a horrific decision. Why would such critical life and death decisions be left to a volunteer? Boggles the mind.

Unfortunately we get what we pay for ......
http://www.justice.vic.gov.au/utility/volunteering/

Unfortunately
JA

[Boozlefoot]

There has been a long standing push for the bail justice system to be done away with in Vic, mainly led by police who are fed up with taking these people from the streets, only to have them bailed and out again in a matter of an hour or two. (The old revolving door) The volunteer bail justices seem to revel in the power they have to over-rule police decisions to have these people remanded in custody until seen by a full-time magistrate. Perhaps the bail justice who heard this application and released him needs to sit down with the families of the victims and hear their point of view.

[AndrewJ]

bail justices seem to revel in the power they have to over-rule police decisions to have these people remanded in custody until seen by a full-time magistrate.

For once, i do feel sorry for the wallopers, who arent allowed to chase people like this, and if they do catch them, have to watch them be released if they get a good (free) lawyer, dress in a nice suit and promise to come back when asked to.
And that comes partly back to the final point in my earlier post.
Why is our legal system so slow/costly and archaic.
People can be on remand for months whilst someone makes sure a piece of paper has the correct number of stamps on it etc
If you detain someone, you must deal with them swiftly.
I find it interesting that if you make cars or clothes etc, and are under pressure, you have to work harder for less or be outsourced. If you have a legal system under pressure, the govt has to provide more money
As soon as this nut is charged, news outlets wont be allowed to use his name or mention his past ( even tho its all over the web and on their historical blogs ), as it might prejudice his trial.
They will have to say "alleged", or risk contempt, even tho the whole lot is on video etc etc
Time for the "whole" legal system to do some changing, or be outsourced, like eveyone else who is no longer "cost effective"

Andrew

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by jenchris

No one drove their vehicle out into the path of the perp.
Had they done so would they be heros?
No, he would have been done for dangerous driving because the terrorist hadn't yet killed anyone.

That's a really interesting point. I watched the bast*ard on video and noted, apart from the incredible calmness of those horses, that nobody thought to ram the car. I couldn't quite figure that one out but I'd like to think I would have been pissed off enough to plough into him myself. It was obviously a case of a rampaging lunatic doing something very dangerous around a lot of vulnerable people and I reckon anyone who had taken him on would have been cleared of any wrong doing.

Children dead. We need very deep mine shafts in which to deposit this type...

[csb (Craig)]

Rom, I doubt your the insurance company would cover damage to your car if you used it to stop the guy. You may do a heroic act but insurance companies aren't hero material.

I note the guys with the bat were young. What have they got to lose. An older person will consider, their own family, life, legal issues, etc.

[torana68 (Roger)]

Originally Posted by Boozlefoot

There has been a long standing push for the bail justice system to be done away with in Vic, .....................

I cant say I knew of this system but its the stupidist thing I've heard of recently, Australia need to look back to a time when if you were arrested you stayed in the cells till you could be brought a before court, arrest is for serious matters and need to be delt with seriously . Not by some part time underqualified person. I blame the civil libertarians, the "do gooder" openly anti Police and trying to stop people's "civil liberties" being taken from them, sorry but there are a lot of people who dont deserve liberty and its time Victoria sorted out their legal system and the restraints placed on Police. No vagrancy provisions no move on power, no pursuit, everyone "entitled" to bail, this is where this gets you , its one of our worst moments and something needs to happen (not just Vic but they seem to be in the biggest mess)

[torana68 (Roger)]

Originally Posted by csb

Rom, I doubt your the insurance company would cover damage to your car ........................

who cares about insurance in an instance like that

[AndrewJ]

Gday Roger

Part of me actually likes the bail justice system, as it allows people to be processed very quickly, which is one of my major gripes.
What i would say though is a bail justice should not be allowed to grant bail if the police oppose it. The cops wont oppose bail for lots of cases, but if they do, it should be respected till a full magistrate can decide.

Andrew

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by csb

Rom, I doubt your the insurance company would cover damage to your car if you used it to stop the guy. You may do a heroic act but insurance companies aren't hero material.

I note the guys with the bat were young. What have they got to lose. An older person will consider, their own family, life, legal issues, etc.

That's the problem, people are to interested in protecting their own arsenals these days than doing whats required... No heroic acts required, just a bit of G&D but I am sure 60 dimwits would have paid for an interview.... (Not that this would have been a consideration of course)

[torana68 (Roger)]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

Gday Roger

Part of me actually likes the bail justice system, as it allows people to be processed very quickly, which is one of my major gripes..................

Andrew

Andrew I know what your saying and if I was arrested Id like to get out quickly but then I wont be and I really don't care if someone has to spend a night in the pen for doing something anti social. All I can say is don't get arrested...........if its on a weekend or pretty minor most state Police can bail unless they don't want you on the streets again in which case you front a Magistrate, unfortunately they (Courts) are too lenient at the moment.

[Nath2099]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

Time for the "whole" legal system to be outsourced, like eveyone else who is no longer "cost effective"

Andrew

What could possibly go wrong.

What's better do you think, have a justice system that crosses it's t's and dots it's i's, or throw innocent people in prison for life? Or worse still, as what happens in the good 'ol USA, kill said innocent people?

I'm all for having magistrates assess bail applications, not a volunteer as well meaning as they may be. And for the magistrate to oppose bail if the cops do, especially for violent crime.

[The_bluester (Paul)]

What would be the point of a bail justice or similar system if police opposing bail meant that a bail justice could not direct a persons release? You might as well simply institute a system where the police have the sole decision making responsibility on if a person is released or not. While they were right to oppose bail in this instance (And doubtless many more) Police are still just people and make mistakes like everyone else.

Regards taking things into your own hands. Best IMO to leave actions like this to those trained to take them (Police) than to undo the work they are doing by vigilante action. What if the guys swinging baseball bats at him proved to be the pivotal thing that wound him up that last little bit and tipped him over into driving at people rather than driving in circles in Flinders St and yelling at the crowd?

[AndrewJ]

Gday Nath

What's better do you think, have a justice system that crosses it's t's and dots it's i's,

If they got it right in a reasonable time frame, maybe.
Just look at the recent debacles re parole, let alone bail
and the number of cases that just end up in endless appeals.
The legal system is now costing us more than most can afford, and still not getting it right. Maybe it does need a low cost alternative brought in that "might" stuff up at the same rate, but at 20% of the cost????
Unless the current system is really threatened with being made irrelevant, it wont change, irrespective of what our pollies say.
ie After the Census debacle we heard "Heads will roll"
Havent seen one yet. Legal system is probably blocking that too.

Andrew

[AndrewJ]

Gday Paul

What would be the point of a bail justice or similar system if police opposing bail meant that a bail justice could not direct a persons release?

It would be like a legal triage system.
I dont believe the police should be involved in the bail itself, as that is open to corruption.
If everone is happy that they arent a threat, give em bail without annoying the beak. ( and the court, not the police set/control the bail )
If police oppose bail, and a magistrate is available, go straight there, else the accused waits.

Andrew

[FlashDrive (Poppy)]

Not sure if anyone else heard this said about him .....

One witness said he was yelling out that the Government was after him and Asteroids were coming....

He also has an ice addiction .... and violence issues.

I think ' Capital Punishment ' would be the order of the day for this fella ...

Col....