Total Blackout in all of SA

[Exfso (Peter)]

Andrew, like most things, it is most definitely Profit ahead of the consumer. Not sure what it is like in Victoria, but it is a nightmare here in SA. Average power bills are ridiculous, I really do not know how single income and or pensioners can pay their bills. I believe that in a lot of cases they cannot. I know if I did not have solar, based on my daily consumption I would be getting $800+ quarterly power bills. I use around 23kwh per day and that is pared right back to what I used to use. and at around 0.36c/kwh over 90 days plus supply charge of around 83c/day I reckon I am pretty close to that mark. I looked at one of my power bills around 8 years ago and the kwh rate was around 15c/kwh, the supply charge has increased by around 120% in that time as well.
It does not paint a pretty picture.

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by glend

SA will continue to pay a price for a lack of Base load capacity, and a clear vision on power infrastructure. Surely there has to be some political fall out from yesterday's event, and recent decisions that increase dependence of connections to Victoria.
There is all that uranium sitting under the ground in SA, so they could be self sufficient in nuclear power. Expensive to build yes, but might be cheaper in the long run than paying peak premium megawatt prices to Vic generators. Crowing about the use of renewable energy is not going to do much for the state's economy if baseload cannot be maintained through those expensive initiatives.

What in God's name are you trying to imply?

The fact of the matter is that the supply failed due to a collapse of the transmission lines as a result of extreme weather conditions... it had little to do with generating capacity (or type)

Somewhat ironic in as much as this super cell event (that destroyed the high-voltage transmission lines) is a direct consequence of a globally irresponsible, base load, fossil-fool energy dependency. ie) coal fired power stations if it needs to be spelt out any further.

You know, like the consequence of buying in to the false economy of climate change denial for the purpose of short term comfort.

So how's that working out for you?

[AndrewJ]

Gday Clive

The fact of the matter is that the supply failed due to a collapse of the transmission lines...

Partly agree, but a system that loses some lines up north shouldnt be allowed to get to the point where it can take out the whole of the state. You would have thought that after the similar collapse in New York State 13 years or so ago, smart people would have been analysing that and putting in place mechanisms to allow an orderly load shed, vs a total collapse. I dont have the details on that, but assume it would be expensive

ie if the problem was truly the downed pylons, they wouldnt have been able to get most of it back up as quickly as they did. There is something else going on.

Andrew

[clive milne]

Hi Andrew,

I accept your correction... the issues were grid related.
But you understand my point, the insinuation that partial dependence on renewable energy (technology) could be submitted as 'casus belli' is specious at best.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Clive
Absolutely agree it would appear to have very little to do with where/how the electricity was being generated ( or not ).
Its not as if they werent expecting the worst storm in ages, so must have known the wind turbines would be offline ?????
The fact that the turbines couldnt run simply means a controlled load shed should have been planned for and implemented, no different to a hot day.
( I always remember seeing a documentary in great britain showing how the power grid engineers always knew when the ads were on in a very favourite soap, and knew ( planned for ) the fact that everyone would be out boiling a kettle at the same time.
Edit Ahh here it is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup )

Andrew

[AndrewJ]

Gday Peter

I looked at one of my power bills around 8 years ago and the kwh rate was around 15c/kwh, the supply charge has increased by around 120% in that time as well.

I have bills back to 1991
At around 2003 it started a rapid climb

std peak supply
1991 11.8 4.46 31 pre GST
2003 12.76 7.10 51 no GST so add 10%
2014 25.82 17.24 104
2016 22.50 14.97 103

I think the drop at the end is removing extras for
carbon taxes and our new smart meters.

Andrew

[glend (Glen)]

Look storms have happened since the earth's atmosphere was formed. To suggest that a particular storm was a result of global warming, at this point in time, is just Green propaganda. It may, or may not, be related or causal, but there is no evidence that supports the notion that it would not have happened if humans had never evolved or developed fossil fuels. What is fact is that SA cannot provide Baseload power to its population, regardless of other factors. I was amazed to see the Greens of TV today saying that the event would only be avoided in the future by more renewables, thus on the assumption it could be global warming caused, only five or six generations from now might notice some improvement in the reduction of probabilities of such storms - in the mean time people living now suffer for generations to maybe buy a reduced probability. Politicians and propogandists will exploit any event for their own agenda.
If some nutter had blown up the legs on a couple of those pylons the result would have been the same. There is a single point of failure designed into the system, that is the Victorian baseload feed. SA needs to duplicate the supply feed at the very least and that will cost $$$. If they want to build ships, or submarines, they are going to need reliable power.


The question for businesses in SA is do we want to continue to be based in a state where the power system is unreliable, or do we relocate to where the supply baseload is adequately provided.

[Nath2099]

To be fair, it wasn't the current Labor government who sold the network. And even coal generated power can't be transmitted through thin air. This has nothing to do with renewables.

All for nuclear though. Modern reactors, stable geography, and NOT controlled by corporates for profit.

There is also plenty of evidence to suggest that extreme weather events are becoming more frequent, and climate change is the prime suspect.

On the subject of why it was back up so quick even with downed lines, load distribution is complicated. It's safer to shut it down, figure out what's going on, then engineer ways around the issue.

[AndrewJ]

On the subject of why it was back up so quick even with downed lines, load distribution is complicated. It's safer to shut it down, figure out what's going on, then engineer ways around the issue.

I agree its not simple, hence why i suggested they probably need to get smart people involved instead of beancounters.
If we take the shut down everything for safety philosophy to its end point, then Victoria should also have gone down, as its generators would suddenly have been hit with a massive drop when the interconnect cut????
The SA grid should as a minimum have multiple internal sections that can be dropped as required, to protect the rest of the grid.

Andrew

[Paul Haese]

Back briefly; but read through this thread and want to clarify some things here since I actually live here.

The lines that went down are primarily servicing the north and west of the state now that Pt Augusta has been shut down. The wind turbines in this area are only a small portion wind farms we have here and mainly service the west coast and mid north.

How this happened was that when the lines were destroy by two tornados this caused grounding and an overload to the existing system. Now without any mechanism to isolate the fault via detection of a drop in power/frequency and shut down that part of the circuit the only place where that could occur on a very old grid was at the Victorian interconnectors. So essentially the problem is with the infrastructure not being able to isolate the fault.

BTW we have had three of these lows this year and it is BS that this is a once in 50 year storm. The one that passed through here in July was just as savage and produced tornados. It knocked over 200 year old trees like they were tooth picks in sand. This storm is being used as the excuse for not updating the infrastructure and the state government is monitoring to see if those upgrades are occurring as it should.

It is also nothing to do with the way the power is generated. It would not matter if we had coal, nuclear, wind or solar. We have several sites in this state where wind power is being generated, thermal power is being generated and even solar power is being generated. The whole system failed, that essentially means there is an infrastructure problem not a generation problem.

Anyway it will happen again whilst this antiquated system is in place. I find it amusing that we live in a first world country and yet we were plunged back into the 18 century because greed is ruling the bottom line. Next time I doubt the Premier will be able to try to spin his way out of the problem.

[Nath2099]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

If we take the shut down everything for safety philosophy to its end point, then Victoria should also have gone down, as its generators would suddenly have been hit with a massive drop when the interconnect cut????

Andrew

Sorry, I don't see how you come to that conclusion. It's not a sudden drop that trips breakers, it's a sudden surge*. I'm no electrical engineer, mind you, so could well be wrong.

I think Paul above has pretty much nailed it.

*Sudden unexpected surge.

[Nath2099]

Originally Posted by Paul Haese

BTW we have had three of these lows this year and it is BS that this is a once in 50 year storm.

It probably used to be a once in 50 year event...

[el_draco (Rom)]

I think its completely pathetic that the idiots in charge of government should just jump on the anti-renewable bandwagon. Its as if they think we are all morons. Shows just how ignorant and stupid they are.

I'd also question the concept of a national distribution network if the failure of one part of it cant be compensated by the rest of the grid.

Stupid politicians and incompetent network managers rule along with short sighted dogma driven philosophy, and the inevitable corporate greed.

[Exfso (Peter)]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

Gday Peter

I have bills back to 1991
At around 2003 it started a rapid climb

std peak supply
1991 11.8 4.46 31 pre GST
2003 12.76 7.10 51 no GST so add 10%
2014 25.82 17.24 104
2016 22.50 14.97 103

I think the drop at the end is removing extras for
carbon taxes and our new smart meters.

Andrew

Andrew, your numbers show the disparity of Victorian and SA rates, the base here is around 36c/kwh for the first 10kwh and then up to around 40c/kwh for the remainder, there maybe a difference of a cent or so between providers, but they are all approximately the same.

[skysurfer]

Interesting discussion.

The idea of central generation of electricity creates more dependency. A 'smart grid' with consumers and businesses generating electricity for each other would make less dependency.
Solar panels on your roof (even here in the EU with far less sunshine tha AU it is getting more commonplace), heat pumps for heating or aircon and using the grid for using the surplus to other users.
Of course this will not make high voltage grids unnecessary, but it at least helps for more indepenency.

I saw in South Africa that they are hardly using solar panels, despite much sunshine (like most parts of AU other than Tas or Vic). They are heavily dependant on coal fired power stations, but also on very poor management of Eskom which is the state operator of the entire grid and the only electricity supplier to customers. Far worse than Australia.

[Nath2099]

Originally Posted by el_draco

I think its completely pathetic that the idiots in charge of government should just jump on the anti-renewable bandwagon. Its as if they think we are all morons. Shows just how ignorant and stupid they are.

It's Turnbull trying not to get rolled by the hard right. I think you're right, this is gonna blow up in his face big time. The next poll numbers will be quite interesting.

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by skysurfer

Interesting discussion.

The idea of central generation of electricity creates more dependency. A 'smart grid' with consumers and businesses generating electricity for each other would make less dependency.
Solar panels on your roof (even here in the EU with far less sunshine tha AU it is getting more commonplace), heat pumps for heating or aircon and using the grid for using the surplus to other users.
Of course this will not make high voltage grids unnecessary, but it at least helps for more indepenency.

I saw in South Africa that they are hardly using solar panels, despite much sunshine (like most parts of AU other than Tas or Vic). They are heavily dependant on coal fired power stations, but also on very poor management of Eskom which is the state operator of the entire grid and the only electricity supplier to customers. Far worse than Australia.

Now this goes to the heart of the matter of global warming. No amount of hand wringing Green politics in Australia is going to stop the rest of the world ignoring the problem and going flat chat making it worse. The developing world get to point the finger at first world nations as the cause while getting away with horrible environmental practices. China, India, Africa, South East Asia, are pumping out greenhouse gases like mad, and their local environments are rapidly becoming toxic.
Australia cannot stop global warming, our output is insignificant when viewed in the context of the global problem. China is adding more to the problem each year than we could save in ten years.
That's not to say we should not do our bit to meet targets, but our effort, even on target, is pretty meaningless. Come the dry season Indonesia will be burning off more old forests to clear land for farming, adding mega tonnes of locked up CO2 to the atmosphere, with no sense of responsibility. Not everyone is on the same page. I can forsee an environment like that portrayed in Blade Runner in the not so distant future. An incentive to leave the polluted hive that is earth for a new world. At present the Earth is infested, and people are the problem.

[xelasnave]

Is whale oil for lamps a renewable resource?
Alex

[glend (Glen)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Is whale oil for lamps a renewable resource?
Alex

Only to the Japanese.

[xelasnave]

Their scientific whale research has paid off it seems.
Alex