Are we alone?

[astroron (Ron)]

A very comprehensive answer Bert,
Cheers

[Stonius (Markus)]

Originally Posted by avandonk

This is the best answer I could come up with for Alex's original questions.

Sorry if it is a bit long.

Bert

Dont apologize. It was fascinating. I had no idea about quantum tunneling and entanglement in biochemistry. Thank you!

[xelasnave]

Bert I am so happy you took the time to provide us with such a wonderful post.
I mentioned a fair way back your finding of research upon properties of a water droplet.
I unfortunately can not find the thread and ask do you recall it.
I found it so interesting.
Thank you so much for participating in this thread.
Members should be honoured that someone with Bert background took the time to make his post.
It was not too long Bert for me when ever you speak I will be all ears.
Alex

[xelasnave]

This may be of interest

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/15...a-or-titan.htm

Alex

[xelasnave]

Here is a snip from the above link

Europa possesses vast oceans which may have a chemical makeup close to that of Earth, and could be warmer than astronomers previously believed. This finding increases chances alien life may be found on Jupiter's fourth largest moon. However, another satellite also holds promise of lifeforms living beyond the Earth - Saturn's largest moon, Titan.

[avandonk]

Thanks Alex, it is our human nature to wonder about reality.

Nature writes its answers to its experiments into the DNA and RNA of the participants.

We humans write the answers we get into books to pass the information on to our descendants.

I have had the privilege of studying many books and a bit was retained and digested.

Bert

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Bert Wins...

Mike

[GTB_an_Owl (Geoff)]

he sure does

geoff

[OICURMT]

Originally Posted by avandonk

Bacteria blindly and randomly had about four billion years to do all the chemical experiments.

Our biology is built on the results of these blind random experiments. In fact quantum effects are at the basis of biology.

Evolution has non-random processes within it (natural selection and adaptation). Only mutation and drift are random.

Consequently, evolution is considered to be a non-random process.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Alex, check out this talk by the wonderful Paul Davies:
The eerie silence: Are we alone in the Universe? --- it gives a comprehensive unbiased overview of what we do and don't know and why it's worth looking for ET whether it's out there or not.

You'll also find other interesting talks and discussions on the topic at the SETI channel. In fact I was watching this SETI vid:
Panel Discussion: When Will We Find Life Beyond Earth?
when you started this thread.

[xelasnave]

Thanks Steve I will take a peek when I get a spare moment.
Alex

[xelasnave]

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/...g-origins-life

[avandonk]

Originally Posted by OICURMT

Evolution has non-random processes within it (natural selection and adaptation). Only mutation and drift are random.

Consequently, evolution is considered to be a non-random process.

Quite correct until you consider that the conditions for natural selection and adaptation are also quite random.

If the same ab initio conditions occurred today evolution would produce a totally different result.

In a clockwork Universe that was the Universe of classical theory the future was totally determined or predictable if one knew where all the particles were at any time perfectly one could predict the future ad infinitum.

Chaos theory tells us there is no such thing as predermination or fate.

There is no invisible hand directing anything.

The Universe is a cold dark place. Or is that it is a bit hot in bits.

It is up to each one of us to do the best we can for ourselves and others.

It is all we have each, for too short a time!

Bert

[simmo]

Hi Bert,

I would like to write something in response to your post that may be of interest.

When I was younger I used to dream as most do every night however years/months later I would be somewhere and the surroundings and circumstance I found myself in I would recognise as one I had dreamt of years/months before.

People call it deja vu. I can't explain it and I have thought about it from time to time. I still get it from time to time but the occurrence is less as I have grown older.

I can't believe that we are just a cold or hot place with nothing greater than that.

It's a sad fact that the more and more we know our world the more people think that it is uninspiring and anything mysterious should be not trusted or believed as there's someway of explaining it.

There are some things that we are just not meant to understand. As much as that irritates. I embrace the mystery as it reminds of how wonderful and inspiring this world can be and perhaps that there is more to this life than what would seem on the outside and what can be explained by men and women.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by avandonk

..... There is no invisible hand directing anything.

The Universe is a cold dark place. Or is that it is a bit hot in bits.
It is up to each one of us to do the best we can for ourselves and others.
It is all we have each, for too short a time!
Bert

Originally Posted by simmo

... There are some things that we are just not meant to understand. As much as that irritates. I embrace the mystery as it reminds of how wonderful and inspiring this world can be and perhaps that there is more to this life than what would seem on the outside and what can be explained by men and women.

Yes.. universe is mostly cold and hot here and there, and that is what is most interesting, I do not find it sad at all.
On the contrary, isn't this mysterious enough?

However, Simmo, you are talking about human mind, which is wonderful and inspiring, and this ability of ours is what is offering us more than just survival and passing our genes to next generations.
But, as Bert wrote, even this is only part of that cold, hot and unpredictable universe, governed by physics.
And there is nothing wrong in trying to understand the universe as it is.
This activity is not making us any better, but not worse either… and it is great fun.

[simmo]

If you need another example slightly different.

When I was in my twenties I used to live on a farm in Albany. We just rented the farmhouse and the rest was pine plantation. I loved fishing and often rode a few kms to the beach to catch my dinner.

One night riding back home I felt as if someone was watching me and the hairs on my neck really stood up. Very creepy and I couldn't ride fast enough in the pitch black. I could not shake the feeling all the way home.

When I got back to the house I discussed the event with my girlfriend and we got talking about ghosts.

Me being twenty and macho, never afraid of anything, said confidently to my girlfriend "you should never be afraid of ghosts". At that split second of finishing the sentence the light above where I was sitting became extremely dimn while the rest of the lights stayed bright and then returned to the same brightness.


Most people wouldnt believe what I have written here but I can tell you it was very real at the time and it was extremely hard to get to sleep that night. Often in that house we would feel that someone was there or felt like we were being watched.

Believe what you will but I think it is because we cannot explain somethings in life people write it off as someone who's a bit cuckoo as it is hard to digest that we may not understand things fully and that our control of this world is not what it seems.

I think science is fantastic but I think we attach ourselves to it as it makes us feel comfortable. In the world of science everything has order and an explanation. If we can't work it out then we will have a theory for it. We will harness and understand everything and our world will be safe and controllable. It's a natural psychological disposition to us as humans to make things that way in varying degrees.

[N1 (Mirko)]

Very interesting discussion.
Bert, I mostly agree with you but can't quite get my head around a couple of things:

Originally Posted by avandonk

If the same ab initio conditions occurred today evolution would produce a totally different result.

How does that relate to the fact that evolution has produced similar results in response to similar conditions? Wings, or eyes, for example. Even if the pre conditions are random, the response to them and the end result may not necessarily be so. I'm not sure the overall "result" of evolution would be that much different if the starting conditions really were exactly the same.

Originally Posted by avandonk

In a clockwork Universe that was the Universe of classical theory the future was totally determined or predictable if one knew where all the particles were at any time perfectly one could predict the future ad infinitum.

Chaos theory tells us there is no such thing as predermination or fate.

I would have thought that the main problem is knowing what exactly each particle is doing. Gathering this information would necessarily interfere with the process you are studying, thereby altering its outcome.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by N1

... I would have thought that the main problem is knowing what exactly each particle is doing. Gathering this information would necessarily interfere with the process you are studying, thereby altering its outcome.

This is exactly what we can't do - it is a universal uncertainty principle that prevents us from gathering all the necessary information for predictions like this.
Universe is predictable, but only in statistical sense.
We can know only the probability of certain event to occur... but NOT when it will occur, if ever in our life time. Therfore, the Universe in not a clockwork mechanism and it is not predictable (in mechanical sense).

[xelasnave]

Simmo that was an interesting story.
I found wiki has something a deja vuhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9j%C3%A0_vu

Back to your story.
It sounds creepy indeed but we should remember that our minds can play all sorts of tricks on us and although science offers interesting research and various explanation we can probably assume tbere is more that science can offer in the future.
The key I believe to understanding reality is not to introduce explanations that have no basis other than it seemed like the best idea that poped into my head at the time.
For what ever reason humans seem una le to utter the words "I dont know" or "I am sorry I can not offer an explanation"... No but they move immediately to a position of having an answer or explanation. I suggest no answer or explanation is better than an uninformed view that often when you look critically is just made up on hthe spot.
All I suggest is when something strange presents to you why not accept you have no answer rather than imagine things that have little basis for even being included in the examination of the situation in question.
For example I could say there is no explanation for you feeling as you did on your trip home nor is there an explaination for the light behaviour. I could speculate but that is what I councel against. I know I dont know but I wont confuse the issue by inventing an expla ation. I am happy to say "I dont know" , and that is the truth really.
Science has not told us everything and science actively says "I dont know" all the time.
The use of "dark" is an indicator sometimes.. Consider dark matter.. Science is saying.. We know it is there but we dont know what it is.. We do invent something like.... It is little black holes or it is worn out atoms... Sounds sortta nice but has absolutely no basis... Science is saying we dont know yet.
We must be careful not to provide answers off the top of our head lest they become accepted as a given. Ghosts is a great example they vet blamed for all sorts of things and yet we have no evidence they are real but forget they were made up to cover a situation that should have only generated a comment.... Strange but I dont know.
Raising ourselves above superstition is the greatest personal chalenge each of us must face but to do so elevates one to the enviable position of exceptance of personal responsibility. And although we dont control everything there is a wonderful empowerment gained be realising you shouldnot abdicate that responsibilty to superstition.
Alex

[bojan]

Alex, instead of accepting the existence of ghosts, all Simmo had to do WTR to that bulb is to check if it (or it's socket) is intermittent or not.
I bet he would have found that the bulb was not screwed-in propery.