Eureka flag - Australian Flag?

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

The rank of James Cook is one of those misconceptions that crops up often enough to annoy someone who cares for facts. A bigger issue is when people are willing to say 'Captain Cook' even once they know that to be false. What surety could such a person offer for the veracity of any of their subsequent statements?


BTW Is there really a show about people who want to make hats??

It seems you are easily annoyed.
In the British military, an officer can keep his rank after he leaves the service as long as he puts the suffix (retired) but can use the title in everyday use.
James Cook was a a Captain when he died and is given that rank to this very day.
As has been said here he was a Lieutenant when he was on his first voyage of discovery.
When an officer dies in service, he keeps the rank he had at the time
The only time the rank is disputed was when he was on the voyage that he is credited to have discovered Australia.
BTW we are both wrong as there is no O in Milliner

Cheers

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by Kunama

Perhaps they are referencing the role rather than the rank,

eg. The captain of the ex collier, His Majesty's Bark Endeavour, was Lieutenant J Cook ..........

Pedantic semantics aside, a great mariner ...

It's true that someone in command of a RN vessel is addressed as 'captain' by the ship's crew regardless of rank but that isn't the misconception I have heard propagated most of my life. I was lucky enough to have a primary school teacher who taught facts rather than propaganda, so the Captain Cook fallacy has grated for 50 years. Thanks to her I have also long known that Australia was invaded, not settled, that Terra Nullius was a myth, and why such a fuss is made about the First Fleet while there is near total silence about the Second Fleet. (Thank you Mrs Boyd, at the time I didn't realise what a gem you were.)

Certainly a great mariner and so probably seen by some as a pedant. After all, to be that successful he would have had to have paid great attention to detail.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by astroron

It seems you are easily annoyed.

Easily?? I could argue that, considering that I have remained silent about some of the outrages posted here, I am really quite tolerant.

Originally Posted by astroron

BTW we are both wrong as there is no O in Milliner

Cheers

I know. But millioner is closer to milliner than to millionaire. And you'd have to be as mad as a hatter to go on such a show.

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

Guys/ gals,
Can we politely return to the key issue of this post.
The current Australian flag has served us well.
Look forward, not backwards................

[Kunama]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

It's true that someone in command of a RN vessel is addressed as 'captain' by the ship's crew regardless of rank but that isn't the misconception I have heard propagated most of my life. I was lucky enough to have a primary school teacher who taught facts rather than propaganda, so the Captain Cook fallacy has grated for 50 years. Thanks to her I have also long known that Australia was invaded, not settled, that Terra Nullius was a myth, and why such a fuss is made about the First Fleet while there is near total silence about the Second Fleet. (Thank you Mrs Boyd, at the time I didn't realise what a gem you were.)

Certainly a great mariner and so probably seen by some as a pedant. After all, to be that successful he would have had to have paid great attention to detail.

How do you think the vast local population of Macropus rufus and Macropus giganteus felt when their land was invaded by the indonesians 50K years ago.
We're all invaders of this land, us and the aboriginal peoples, so let us just accept that, all get along and enjoy the beautiful night sky over Terra Australis.

and to return to Ken's topic, if the flag was to be changed (not my preferred course of action) it should be changed to something that does not identify any particular part of the population or any event.
References to the aboriginal flag, Union Jack, any minority groups, etc are things that seem to create disharmony and should be avoided.

To be fair to all Australians, it should depict something that is common to all and available to all Australians.

So I vote for a deep blue flag portraying the stars of the Southern Cross as well as the Pointers in gold.

(can you tell that I have the flu and nothing much to do with my time today?)

[bugeater (Marty)]

I get the impression that some people conflate Australia as a "country" or society with a symbol - i.e. the flag. To be proud of a flag to me seems odd, but being proud of your country seems quite reasonable. Changing a flag won't change the country you are proud of.

And on the comments around "thugs" being associated with the Eureka flag - so who is often associated with our actual flag? The ugly side of Australian nationalism certainly seems to claim it as their banner.

[csb (Craig)]

Originally Posted by astroron

It is only when people start rattling the can and beating the drum that any one even thinks about it . . . the empty cans makes the loudest noise . . .

Originally Posted by astroron

It seems you are easily annoyed.

It certainly annoys me when people direct non-factual emotive statements at people on the other side of the debate. These people are saying those with a different opinion aren't worth listening to. When actually those types of statements are worthless in a mature debate.

The flag debate is often a topic of interest. I think the monarchy will finish after Queen Elizabeth and then the flag debate will really be hot.

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

It's true that someone in command of a RN vessel is addressed as 'captain' by the ship's crew regardless of rank but that isn't the misconception I have heard propagated most of my life. I was lucky enough to have a primary school teacher who taught facts rather than propaganda, so the Captain Cook fallacy has grated for 50 years. Thanks to her I have also long known that Australia was invaded, not settled, that Terra Nullius was a myth, and why such a fuss is made about the First Fleet while there is near total silence about the Second Fleet. (Thank you Mrs Boyd, at the time I didn't realise what a gem you were.)

Certainly a great mariner and so probably seen by some as a pedant. After all, to be that successful he would have had to have paid great attention to detail.

No one ever remembers who came second,maybe an exception can be made for Buzz Aldrin as his accomplishment has been well publicized for the last 47 years.

Cheers

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

Easily?? I could argue that, considering that I have remained silent about some of the outrages posted here, I am really quite tolerant.


I know. But millioner is closer to milliner than to millionaire. And you'd have to be as mad as a hatter to go on such a show.

Maybe you missed your calling by not going on that show,
you could have made some money.
Cheers

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by csb

It certainly annoys me when people direct non-factual emotive statements at people on the other side of the debate. These people are saying those with a different opinion aren't worth listening to. When actually those types of statements are worthless in a mature debate.

It is not non-factual, it is definitely fact that of the 24 million people in Australia don't go around every day worrying about the flag.
I never said that anyone is not entitled to voice their opinions and their opinions are worthless.
Hey we are having a debate and opinions of both sides are being canvassed
So what are you griping about?




The flag debate is often a topic of interest. I think the monarchy will finish after Queen Elizabeth and then the flag debate will really be hot.

Maybe so, so till then every now and again the cans will be rattled and the drums will be beaten by people who want this to happen, which in my estimation is by the minority.
And all this will go round again.
BTW Did you see anyone in the ANZAC day marches looking grumpy for marching under that flag you want changed so much
I didn't
Cheers

[xelasnave]

How much would it cost to change the flag? It would be a very expensive fashion statement.
The flag maker would make a killing.
Mmmm follow the money.... who got people thinking about a flag change in the first place.

I would rather the money go to cancer research is that being too sensible.

Alex

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

How much would it cost to change the flag? It would be a very expensive fashion statement.
The flag maker would make a killing.
Mmmm follow the money.... who got people thinking about a flag change in the first place.

I would rather the money go to cancer research is that being too sensible.

Alex

Way to go Alex
Cheers

[JB80 (Jarrod)]

I like to think that one day we will eventually become a republic and until that day I don't see much point in changing the flag although I can see why some would want a more inclusive flag. Actually why even wait for that which may never happen anyway, probably more chance of a flag change than a republic unfortunately.

The Eureka flag unfortunately I can't see making it's way to any design but I would happily go along with something as long as it contained the southern cross and some elements from the Aboriginal flag or culture.

[csb (Craig)]

A 2016 survey featured in an ABC news report:

"in a survey of 8,140 people conducted by Western Sydney University . . . of the respondents, 64 per cent said they believed the Australian flag should change, while 36 per cent said it should remain the same."

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-0...survey/7113992

Surveys are somewhat subjective but anyway this shows that many do want change.

An appropriate time to change will be when we become a republic. An appropriate time to become a republic is when there is a change of monarch - if it does continue after the Queen. I suppose this depends on how well Prince William is groomed for the position - I can't think anyone else would be acceptable.

P.S. I've seen flag designs that include a boomerang - looks to corny for my liking.

[Merlin66 (Ken)]

Becoming a Republic is not a mandatory decision to consider a change to our flag.

[csb (Craig)]

I agree. However, it would be an apt time and advantageous for promotion of a flag change.

[torana68 (Roger)]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

The English bloke who 'discovered' the east coast of what is now Australia was Lieutenant James Cook. .

I'm ex Navy, you refer to an Officer at his last rank...... anything else is somewhat insulting. So as far as I'm concerned its Capt. Cook. ( reading back I'm late the point was made earlier )

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by Merlin66

I know there are mixed reactions to the Eureka Flag, and many unions have "taken it" for their own, but the history and significance of the original should not be overlooked.
With the recent debacle over the flag in NZ, it's pretty obvious that the current Aus/NZ designs are still acceptable to the majority.
However, I'd like to suggest a variant - just replace the Union jack on the current Ozzie flag with the Eureka flag.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_Flag
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_flag_debate
(Interesting comment: The organisation has not consistently supported one design but is opposed to the Eureka Flag - no reason given???)

Seems we had this debate and the idea got dumped along with the equally dopey republic idea which people keep banging on about. Now, the Kiwi's have done the same. Why do we have to trash our history and why cant people accept that our flag is our flag, full stop?

The day I swear allegiance to or salute anything other than the current flag will be the same the day Pluto has a heat wave and that's about as likely as me voting for an Australian "President"... talk about severe disturbance in "The Force"

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by kunama

what have we done to earn the right to change the flag that others fought for?

bravo!!!

[el_draco (Rom)]

Originally Posted by KenGee

Kunama , you do understand that the national anthem was "god save the Queen" during WW 1 & 2... so by your logic it was wrong to change it to Advance Australia fair.

YES, it was wrong. Very few people even know the words of the current joke. Maybe we should take note of that fact.