Critical Remote Observatory Components

[stevous67 (Steve M)]

Hello everone,

I've been reading through various threads searching for a suggested list of critical components [brands and model numbers if possible] for a remote observatory.

In my case I prefer the ScopeDome full automation solution and will model the installation around this unit. The location will most likely be unpowered and without telephone line. I continue to build a list of parts, but I hoped to draw on any experience people are happy to share.

This topic is not inclusive of the telescope, mount, camera, pier design, or automation program, just the components that drive the reliable and safe operation of the dome. CCDAutopilot will be the executive program.

Components I foresee so far are:

1. 3G wireless internet service, but not sure what is a best practise product. Does anyone use a wiresless internet service that works reliably? What equipment do you use?
2. IP remote power switching system, with say 8 [?] switchable relays, auto PC rebooting function, scheduled system power downs. Again unsure of recommended unit?
3. Solar power system, with LAN monitoring, battery temperature sensing, battery status, charge and maintenance rates. Does anyone have a suggestion on what brands are good for this type of application, and the units that are ideal. Looking for web interface to make remote monitoring easier.
4. GPS device for precise time monitoring
5. Weather station: I have the AAG Cloudwatcher weather monitoring station with wind speed device and SOLO controller.
6. PC suitable for low power consumption, windows based.
7. Camera surveillance. Monitoring the mount, telescope, within the dome, and outside the dome. I know and use two different brands, HIKvision and AVTech. Has anyone a suggestion on what works for them in regard to remote viewing and their requirements?
8. Moisture control systems? If necessary I could visit the site bi-monthly to service the moisture control system, but is there one that could be solar powered with low maintenance?
9. Alarm system? Do you use one? Or do you tie your camera system into your securty system with email alerts? [The location will be a farmers property, with permanent residence/occupants nearby].
10. Perimeter fence? I was thinking a 2m high cyclone fence with shade cloth wrap?
11. Insurance? I currently have a policy already geared to equipment anywhere, and this is by CHUBB - Masterpiece. But does anyone have an alternative?

Did I miss any component? I appreciate the topic is very broad, but if you have a comment on any one item it would be appreciated. It may be that an articale exists or a thread I missed answers these questions already?

Thanks for any advice.

Steve

[thunderchildobs]

A very good friend that lives very close to the observatory.
Something WILL go wrong at the most inconvinent time.
Are you prepared to go for drive at 2:00am to fix a problem?
The friend doesn't need to be an astronomer but it helps. The friend must be able to at least shutdown the observatory and close the dome. You then know the equipment is safe and visit the observatory when you are ready.

Brendan

[stevous67 (Steve M)]

Originally Posted by thunderchildobs

...The friend must be able to at least shutdown the observatory and close the dome. You then know the equipment is safe and visit the observatory when you are ready.

Brendan

Sounds very good advice Brendan - I really hope I can arrange this as part of the project. Thank you.

Steve

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Holy Moly...you gunna do it huh Steve? ...man, just that list scares me

Even after having built three decent observatories now... I can't help with that sort of technicality I am afraid

Good luck...and when you have done all the hard work and set it all up...can I have a play?

Mike

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by stevous67

Did I miss any component?

A good sky...

[stevous67 (Steve M)]

Hi Mike,

Yep, I'm now seriously looking at it. I'm extremely confident my automated equipment runs to a standard that I can now consider the next step. This has been now for over a year now.

Clive, that is part of the next phase, selecting a good sky location. It so happens the ASV has a site in Heathcote VIC, which enjoys an unusual weather phenomena where the great dividing range virtually stops the southern weather from proceeding north. Its still not the best location as seeing can be very variable, however, its only a few hours from my location and it also enjoys very dark skies.

Apart from the learning curve of the dome operation, I hope I can find a farmer who will accept the set up on their site with a reasonable amount of compensation.

Thanks guys,

Steve

[jase (Jason)]

Ok, I've been down this path before so happy to share my experiences. Its not for the fainthearted but will give you a greater appreciation for those that have done it and do it well.

Originally Posted by stevous67

1. 3G wireless internet service, but not sure what is a best practise product. Does anyone use a wiresless internet service that works reliably? What equipment do you use?

If there are no other comms available, then 3G wireless is a good option. I would suggest investigating Satellite options too. The lag with satellite can painful for remote desktop sessions. I know you're set with CCDAutoPilot but you may want to consider ACP Expert with its web interface as it much easier to control over less than optimal network conditions. You need to think about the backhaul of large amounts of GB of data and what will be the cost of doing this. Alternatively, just use the comms as the control channel and head up there every month with a external hard drive to obtain the data you've collected over the last few weeks.
You need to think about a router/firewall with port forwarding. Most will do port forwarding these days. Ideally a static IP address assignment makes it easier. Just to PAT (port address translation) to the different web services on the internal network.

Originally Posted by stevous67

2. IP remote power switching system, with say 8 [?] switchable relays, auto PC rebooting function, scheduled system power downs. Again unsure of recommended unit?

Yes, mandatory component to power cycle stuff. I suggest its wifi enabled and if possible telnet or comms port accessible so you can script the startup (power on) and shutdown (power off). If you are running off grid, make sure the inverter is ample. On-grid, get yourself a quality UPS to filter surges etc. Make sure the IP power switch has no fans i.e. an industrial unit. Fans suck in dust and crap. You will have a failure in now time. Make sure the remote power switch is accessible independent of the PC thats onsite. i.e. if the PC has crashed and its needed to access the power switch, you're hosed.

Originally Posted by stevous67

4. GPS device for precise time monitoring

Don't waste your money. Internet time sources are more than sufficient.

Originally Posted by stevous67

5. Weather station: I have the AAG Cloudwatcher weather monitoring station with wind speed device and SOLO controller.

I used a AAG Cloudwatch for a couple years but found them unreliable. I went through two units. I understand the newer units have improved reliability. You want a smart system. There needs to be provisions that if the weather station no longer see the PC, the dome closes. Similarly a mechanism to override what the PC is doing i.e. if it hangs, the weather system needs to have the ability to close the dome (external close output independent of the PC health). You will not find a better weather sensor than the Boltwood Cloud Sensor. Not cheap, but neither is your equipment you are trying to protect.

Originally Posted by stevous67

6. PC suitable for low power consumption, windows based.

One of the most critical components. Again, go with a system that is fanless for reliability. An SSD will reduce the heat a fanless unit needs to contend with too. In addition, look for system bios that supports a watchdog for the OS you intend to run. The bios polls the watchdog service running on the OS. If the service doesn't response to a hello after a configured quantity of attempts, the bios reboots the PC as its assumed the system has hung. I've been using FITPC for years.

Originally Posted by stevous67

7. Camera surveillance. Monitoring the mount, telescope, within the dome, and outside the dome. I know and use two different brands, HIKvision and AVTech. Has anyone a suggestion on what works for them in regard to remote viewing and their requirements?

Yes, very handy. Make sure it can be turned on and off as needed. One with IR lights in the dome can be good to know what the scope is doing. Stick another on a pole beside your weather station pointing up so you can evaluate the sky conditions visually yourself. Cloud sensors don't pick up the faint high level cloud that can be seen in a web cam capable of integrated exposures

[DavidTrap (David)]

Jase - what sort of "all sky camera" do you recommend?

Fantastic info on this thread too!

Ta
DT

[jase (Jason)]

Originally Posted by DavidTrap

Jase - what sort of "all sky camera" do you recommend?

Fantastic info on this thread too!

Ta
DT

Originally Posted by DavidTrap

Jase - what sort of "all sky camera" do you recommend?

Fantastic info on this thread too!

Ta
DT

Hi David,

For the amateur, I'd go with a Moonglow technologies all sky cam. They are the best bang for buck Reasonable quality with a large install base. US$600 for the PAL bundle. May also want to consider a dome heater for an additional US$80.
http://www.moonglowtech.com/products...am/index.shtml

If you're a little more hardcore with deeper pockets, go with the SBIG AllSky-340 monochrome. Will set you back $US2.5k
http://www.sbig.com/products/cameras...ky-340-camera/

Beyond these I'd probably recommend a CASKETT but they are likely out of reach for the amateur market given the units are custom built to specs you want and highly configurable. I was reading a paper where HATSouth @ SSO were scripting their unit to identify high altitude, cold cirrus clouds that are not robustly detected by the Boltwood cloud sensor
http://www.obstech.net/en/content/caskett

There are other custom and diy options available depending on budget.

[DavidTrap (David)]

Thanks again,

DT

[ericwbenson (Eric)]

Hi Steve,

From my experience building a remote site obs, the most important thing is having/learning a wide array of skills (from concrete/electrical/building/thermal stuff to telescope alignment/camera adjustment to software/network config). In some ways this is the most daunting aspect, you need to know enough about a lot to make it all work, but I suppose this is what makes it so rewarding in the end.
I guarantee there will be something you don't know enough about to fulfill the mission, that is when forums like these become invaluable, but better yet is having a partner in the whole affair, ideally another motivated astroimager with complementary skills that you can get along with.

Be prepared for sticker shock...no part of this is cheap and if you skimp now, you will pay later. The non-astronomy equipment costs are the real surprise, the comms/solar/site prep/building/tools/insurance!/transport!!/accommodation during build phase etc, can add up to more than a modest astro rig. Look seriously about scope hosting to make sure you are going down the right path for you.

As to your specific points:
1. 3G is far more reliable than satellite and costs a lot less. If you can get 3G that is good. Satellite can work (it's all we had in Ark up until recently) but you cannot operate the equipment directly, something like ACP needs to drive everything including starting up/shutting down. The busiest/laggiest time on the satellite is at dusk, and you are not reliably awake/coherent at dawn. Whenever you are in a rush the connection will drop or the latency will go above 2 seconds...it can be frustrating. You can transfer large files overnight with good bandwidth for relatively cheap (see SkyMesh Owl plans), but that needs some kind of automated/scheduled FTP synching software. (I wrote my own...) Plan where the dish/antennae is going to sit with a good signal, it will need a post and footer, and a way for the cable to go back to your building/obs.

2. http://www.digital-loggers.com/lpc.html This thing can be driven by ACP via scripts, accessed over the web via satellite (not all devices can handle long latency connections). One thing to watch out for, the plugs on it are North American, lucky me being Canadian I had a bunch of suitable IEC plugs handy.

3. Size the system generously, you need enough power to get your always on equipment through 3? maybe more, overcast days. You normally don't want to be cycling the batteries down more than 40-50% per day or they won't last 3 years (N.B. even with with moderate cycling 10-20% they only go ~7-9 years). The batteries will cost a fortune, we have 20 x 105AH, I would have gotten more if I could have. Getting this part of the project is crucial since oversizing is expensive, and undersizing is disastrous and expensive later. I made a solar model spreadsheet with expected power draw (constant and nightly), sunny days, sun hours per day, sun angle over the seasons, battery capacity and solar panel capacity etc...to figure it all out.

The inverter needs to be very oversize, the Scopedome (and probably other) motors draw a LOT of current to start up. We started with a 'high end' portable Projecta 12V 600W inverter (or 1000W? can't remember, we were going to use one each), it would stall opening the shutter which is only a 120W motor, with nothing else on. We now use a 48V Latronics 1800W inverter (5400W surge), it doesn't stall...
Get a MPPT type charge controller (we use Morningstar-Tristar60) it easily pays for itself many times over in less required panel capacity and battery life which are the real cost drivers along with the infrastucture around them.
N.B. 48V system is far superior to 12V, for the charge controller, the cabling, the fuses, the inverter, the battery setup etc.
Plan where to put all these batteries, fuses/electronics, not trivial actually, and how to mount the solar panels, which need more footers and posts with special brackets.

4. GPS is nice but no big deal. I have a Garmin 18x LVC setup with NTPd on windows, works fine, under msec precision as long as you can get a compatible USB-RS232 converter, this was trial and error.

5. We are using AAG, it works as advertized, software setup is good, their service has been good. For example the rain sensor failed after 4? years, they sent a replacement for free, we just haven't gotten around to installing it yet, but we don't worry about sudden showers in Arkaroola, so your situation is perhaps different. The Boltwood is surely better but cost about 5x more. Either type need a post to mount on and cables to run back to obs (next to satellite dish is our solution).

6. No question, FIT-PC. Between Mark and I we must have ~7 FIT-PC2's (lost track now). Mark is trying the new fitlet, looks really good. Fitted with an SSD there are VERY low power, impervious to temperature, industrial grade, wake-on-lan (fitlet), auto-boot on power cycle etc, ideal for remote use.

7. Nice to have inside the dome, although I find the audio more useful, you can tell by the sounds if everything is working right...Getting stuff to work across firewalls is a real pain (some cameras use activex plugins), and the bandwidth video consumes is startling, use sparingly.

8. Don't have moisture in Ark, so can't help there. I'd love to have aircon to bring the equipment temp down in the dome before sunset, but I would need a truckload of batteries...so opening the shutter early is the cheaper solution.

9-10. Land owner being around is your best defense.
11. One of those hidden costs not necessarily budgeted for, good thing it is on your list.

One other suggestion I would make: If at all possible set everything up that you can in your backyard and debug, for many weeks. Ideally this would be the dome,scope,computers,routers,camera s,software that you are going to use (pier/footing/solar excluded, they are to hard to move).

Best,
EB

[Paul Haese]

Not many of us are doing it and for good reason. I can tell you one thing you need to bare in mind is to have multiple redundancies for everything. With this you can eliminate a lot of angst.

Scope dome is good. I have been using it for nearly three years in two guises and it works well, is near bullet proof and never fails to do what is asked of it. Worth every penny I spent on both systems.

IP Switches are essential and as pointed out use ones without fans and that have a web page for remote connection. It will mean you can also shut down your computer too and give that a rest. Buy several as backups so that if one does go down and you have to drive to site you can replace it instantly. Make sure you put all of them on the same network at once though, so that you don't have to get the spare up on the network later.

Make sure you have a router/modem on site with port forward switching. The IP swtiches will be forwarded through that router. Camera will be port forwarded too. Camera must have its own web page too. It will mean it is independent of the whole system had help in times of breakdowns.

Static IP's are a must. They cost a bit more but will mean you can dial in from anywhere in the world.

For coms you can use either Ethernet, Ethernet via power or wireless. I have two types at my observatories in case something drops out.

Make sure your modem has a UPS installed to power it up too. It will act as a redundancy for you and allow you to remotely access the camera if your power system falls over.

Going off grid is a big challenge to think about for remote. Like Eric said, get loads of batteries and a huge inverter. If you are on grid get a good UPS that can at least switch everything off and close the shutter once it detects a power failure.

I am using standard computers in my system. I have inspected the insides of the oldest one recently and you would not even know it is exposed to a moist environment. There is no corrosion at all and that is from a site which has very dew conditions. Fits are good but a desktop will be ok.

Don't worry too much about moisture in general. Observatory equipment is ok against moisture and computers etc with some over head protection will be fine. No need for moisture extraction. It all dries out fast enough during warmer days.

Dew protection is a must but I have a Mount Hub Pro on both scopes which has the dew heater on always once the power comes on. It eliminates dew issues. Any dew system will be set and forget.

I use an AAG cloud watcher and I think it works fine. I have mine on the mains though and if the power goes out the computers will see it has dropped out and will close down the system so that I don't run down my UPS. This acts as a safeguard against power outage for me. On batteries you will not have this problem but I thought I would mention it.

Settings on cloud sensors can be critical. Since I have my gear quite close to the coast I have my system set to close once cloud arrives. The cloud contains moisture but I don't want to wait for the first drops of rain before the roof closes.

Like Eric said, if you can setup first in your back yard and hammer out the dramas before you have to get in a car and drive some where. I did not do that and I spent a lot of nights driving to hammer out problems. So learn from my mistake.

Insurance for theft is what you really need here. A large fence is one thing but in remote places thieves don't really travel out that far. You won't get insurance for storm damage once you mention the roof opens and closes. No matter what you show them, you will be denied. And; there is no point in not revealing it at time of policy implementation. If they find out later the roof opens and closes you will not be covered.

Don't bother with the GPS. Get time from an international time server. It will be very accurate and then use plate solving to get you on the mark.

If I think of anymore I will add it later. Hope this helps.

[Bassnut (Fred)]

Thats a pretty good detailed write up Paul, Id agree with most of that.
Where I dont agree with though, strongly is the use of a standard PC. Im supprised you dont see any enviromental effects inside it, is it in a seperate sealed box?. Ive had remote experience for a while now, and the most trouble ive had in various configurations in the past is with a standard PC, they always failed eventually. A fits PC is arguably cheaper (with the number of USB ports/WIFI/serial they come with standard etc), is sealed, runs on a 15w plug pack or 12v DC native without it. That would be 10 times less power than a PC? so it can easily be on 24/7. I think youll find fits PCs are pretty much standar even required on remote rigs these days.

Also, its tempting to use a dome that just fits the scope given remote doesnt need room for a person in it. This is great for wind protection, but it can make seeing some 2 arcsec worse due to thermals (depending on location), id say a roll off would be better.

[Paul Haese]

Originally Posted by Bassnut

Thats a pretty good detailed write up Paul, Id agree with most of that.
Where I dont agree with though, strongly is the use of a standard PC. Im supprised you dont see any enviromental effects inside it, is it in a seperate sealed box?. Ive had remote experience for a while now, and the most trouble ive had in various configurations in the past is with a standard PC, they always failed eventually. A fits PC is arguably cheaper (with the number of USB ports/WIFI/serial they come with standard etc), is sealed, runs on a 15w plug pack or 12v DC native without it. That would be 10 times less power than a PC? so it can easily be on 24/7. I think youll find fits PCs are pretty much standar even required on remote rigs these days.

Also, its tempting to use a dome that just fits the scope given remote doesnt need room for a person in it. This is great for wind protection, but it can make seeing some 2 arcsec worse due to thermals (depending on location), id say a roll off would be better.

Certainly a good points and I was surprised not to see any rust or corrosion whatsoever. It's not in a seal box for either observatories. My local computer store guys said they often service computers that have been in really caustic environments and only then do those computers really suffer. Interesting.

I had thought that a FIT PC for both systems will be the way to go in the end and I had not thought it would be a requirement for remote facilities at hosting sites.

I agree about using a larger dome though a Scope Dome is a pretty big dome (standard 3 metres). I have not see any seeing effects in the scope dome I operate. My wide field unit works in a roll off roof.

[stevous67 (Steve M)]

Jase, Eric, Paul, Rally,

I'm extremely grateful for the invested time provided by you all, thank you.

It's certainly enough for me to consider options before going perhaps a wrong direction.

Thank you.

Steve