Waste of life and potential - Page 6

Hagar (Doug) · #**101** 05-05-2015, 12:52 PM

As I mentioned earlier I have a distinct distaste for the death penalty but do find it objectionable that face book seems to be full of do gooder's who are making calls like "Bringing our boys home"
Lets just remember for a minute these blokes were criminals! they thought nothing of transporting and selling drugs which could have killed a lot of innocent people or as a minimum ruined a lot of lives.
I find it quite sickening that these words are being used for mere criminals while the same wording is usually expressed for our fallen soldiers when returned from Afganastan and the like.
Lets not let these two go down in history like Ned Kelly who was also another criminal who met with the same fate, but here in Australia.
I do feel for their families but that is where it ends. I have lost friends to drugs over the years and no one gave a S** t.

doppler (Rick) · #**102** 05-05-2015, 01:43 PM

Who is inocent? Drug possession and use is a criminal offecence for all hard drugs in Australia.

Hagar (Doug) · #**103** 05-05-2015, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doppler

Who is inocent? Drug possession and use is a criminal offecence for all hard drugs in Australia.

I know what you are saying but the end user of drugs just like the cigarette smoker, is in my opinion guilty by association.

Moon (James) · #**104** 05-05-2015, 03:30 PM

The irony of all this is that on one hand, the drug trade is entirely comprised of free individuals acting in what they believe is their own self-interest and on the other hand we have the death penalty where the state is acting at its most aggressive and coercive worst. That’s why it’s a brain twister for so many.

Across the world, the death penalty is being eradicated and drugs are being legalised. That is the direction we are all heading. It’s a slow process for people accept any change, but it’s unstoppable thank goodness. Slowly the people of the world are understanding that freedom is fundamental for a prosperous civilised society. These are just 2 examples, but there are plenty more such as the recent moves to accept gay marriage, democratisation, liberalisation of trade and markets, the decriminalization of gambling, homosexuality, prostitution and euthanasia.

I’m also tired of hearing about these 2 chaps, but if it gets people really thinking about what sort of world they want to leave behind for the next generation, then it’s a good thing.

Kunama · #**105** 06-05-2015, 05:57 PM

This issue is now starting to get out of hand, apparently there are now 'public grieving ceremonies' to be held at two Canberra churches for these two criminals who sought to make their contribution to society by bringing in 8.3Kg heroin to bring much misery to weaker members of society and in the process to make themselves wealthy. I find it incredibly distasteful that everyone is jumping on this bandwagon when very little is done to recognise the efforts of people who actually serve their country.

These two clowns were only trying to serve their own interests and in the process managed to collar 7 other young Australians into their crime, leaving them to rot in Indonesian prisons.

Time people woke up to the fact that Australia is better off without these two drug pushers.

clive milne · #**106** 06-05-2015, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunama

, apparently there are now 'public grieving ceremonies' to be held at two Canberra churches for these two criminals .

Yep, you just have to marvel at the efficacy of Rupert's tapeworms in molding public opinion. They conflate a couple of two bit, criminal sociopaths with the ANZAC, hero mythos... (and implicitly suggest action of some sort is required to restore the integrity of our bruised, collective identity as if it were a national imperative) and with the next breath, legitimise/normalise the attempt to dismantle the public health and education infrastructure upon which the future of this country depends.

GrahamL · #**107** 06-05-2015, 08:09 PM

These men are beyond death now you pair , why not let those who want to mark there passing just do so without the political chest thumping nonsense

Intolerance is itself a form of violence -'ghandi'

clive milne · #**108** 06-05-2015, 08:27 PM

By all means... back to the kool aid.

pmrid (Peter) · #**109** 08-05-2015, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doppler

As for the Bali 9 I think that they should have been extradited to Australia to face their crimes which were directed against Australia.

Why? They commited crimes against Indonesian laws. Why should Indonesia forego it's own jurisdiction in favour of Australia? We want other states to actively and seriously interdict the trade in dangerous drugs and precursors. Indonesia no less than America, China, India, Japan etc. Some of those still practice the death penalty but we actively pursue joint and co-operative enforcement with them anyway. Why is Indonesia "special "?

Peter

graham.hobart (Graham stevens) · #**110** 08-05-2015, 01:24 PM

My last comment..
My original point was not that they didn't deserve punishment (they did), but that they deserved mercy or clemency after ten years of good behaviour- the death sentence commuted to LIFE IMPRISONMENT.
That's what would have happened under Bang Bang.
Somehow a plea for mercy has got all mixed up with right and wrong.
I know they broke the law and should be punished, they were, but they did everything they could to reform. If you take away the chance of reformation, of mercy, of reward for good behaviour (after all a life sentence is still a life sentence), what motivation have any criminals got for redemption? Every country would be packed to the gills with rotting prisons, like the prison hulks that dotted the Thames in the 18th Century.
Slightly ironic that those inmates were condemned in reality to life in Australia, and they redeemed themselves (mostly!) in this great Country.
I will shaddup my face now!!
Graham

strongmanmike (Michael) · #**111** 08-05-2015, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graham.hobart

My last comment..
My original point was not that they didn't deserve punishment (they did), but that they deserved mercy or clemency after ten years of good behaviour- the death sentence commuted to LIFE IMPRISONMENT.
That's what would have happened under Bang Bang.
Somehow a plea for mercy has got all mixed up with right and wrong.
I know they broke the law and should be punished, they were, but they did everything they could to reform. If you take away the chance of reformation, of mercy, of reward for good behaviour (after all a life sentence is still a life sentence), what motivation have any criminals got for redemption? Every country would be packed to the gills with rotting prisons, like the prison hulks that dotted the Thames in the 18th Century.
Slightly ironic that those inmates were condemned in reality to life in Australia, and they redeemed themselves (mostly!) in this great Country.
I will shaddup my face now!!
Graham

Thankfully, I think your general sentiments on this issue are indeed shared by the vast majority Graham and are humane, balanced and just.

Mike

marc4darkskies (Marcus) · #**112** 09-05-2015, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graham.hobart

...
My original point was ... that they deserved mercy or clemency after ten years of good behaviour- the death sentence commuted to LIFE IMPRISONMENT.
...
Somehow a plea for mercy has got all mixed up with right and wrong.

Exactly Graham!

Quote:

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Thankfully, I think your general sentiments on this issue are indeed shared by the vast majority Graham and are humane, balanced and just.

Mike

I sure hope so Mike. It's hard to tell frankly. Much of the sentiment expressed in this thread plus the arguments in the broader community have, as you correctly pointed out earlier, missed the point. This is not about crime & punishment (the law), it's about redemption and mercy (the humanity).

I ignored this case for 10 years. When they got their original sentence I thought fine, just deserts etc etc. My humanity kicked in when I heard how they had both worked so hard to redeem themselves. It became clearer and clearer that theirs wasn't an act or a facade. It was a real attempt to do good and make amends.

My wife, who runs a large rehab center in these parts, can attest to the reality that people can change their path from bad to good. Even when not faced with a death sentence wrong doers can see the light and make amends and become better people. Some even go on to be excellent mentors and teachers to others who might be following the same destructive path.

Shortly before his execution, Andrew Chan actually called and addressed the "students" in Gail's rehab to challenge them about taking the opportunities presented to them to turn their lives around now before it's too late. Coming from him the message was a lot more powerful than if it had come from someone without that negative life experience. I.e. even at the end Andrew Chan was trying to help others to change.

Renato1 (Renato) · #**113** 16-05-2015, 02:00 PM

Well, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev just got a lethal injection death sentence for the fun he had blowing up and maiming men, women and children in the country where he was given refuge. And he hasn't shown any remorse since then.

Is this death sentence a waste of life and potential too?
Cheers,
Renato

Nikolas (Nik) · #**114** 16-05-2015, 04:19 PM

Nope it's well deserved.

astroboof (Steve McN) · #**115** 16-05-2015, 04:28 PM

They was right
and we was wrong
but we shot them dead
and now they gone...

Near hundreds of people are murdered or executed each and every day all across our world in the name of some form of law, and the majority recieve no interest or attention at all. It always has been and always will be. Best remember them for how they lived rather than died, far as moments go, and like everyone else they had good and bad moments during their lives, they paid dearly for there greed and lack of reason, as perhaps needed to be for the greater good. The realistic and educated cynic in us laughs at those words 'the greater good'.

Let 'em go.

Hagar (Doug) · #**116** 16-05-2015, 06:07 PM

No one deserves to die. Easy to say rapist, murderers, terrorist etc should be executed. I have said it myself on numerous occasions but in reality I would struggle both physically and morally to pull the trigger. There are other ways to deal with these people but what is needed is some uniformity and consistency in sentencing of such people.
There have been numerous instances where the guilty person was found not guilty 20 years on.

My thoughts anyway.

Hans Tucker (Hans) · #**117** 16-05-2015, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hagar

No one deserves to die. Easy to say rapist, murderers, terrorist etc should be executed. I have said it myself on numerous occasions but in reality I would struggle both physically and morally to pull the trigger. There are other ways to deal with these people but what is needed is some uniformity and consistency in sentencing of such people.
There have been numerous instances where the guilty person was found not guilty 20 years on.

My thoughts anyway.

It was proven Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was guilty without a doubt. What he and his brother did was calculated, methodical and cold blooded without any regard for the innocent individuals. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev deserves to die for his crime pure and simple. You can't compare his case to some poor individual that suffered a miscarriage of justice...the mountain of evidence and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev own confession proves his guilt and total lack of remorse. If Eight-year-old Martin Richard was my brother or son I would have no hesitation to rid the world of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. Now the endless appeals begin...I feel for Boston and the victims of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev crime

Hagar (Doug) · #**118** 16-05-2015, 11:42 PM

Hans. It's all hypotnetical of course. I assume you haven't killed anyone yet.
That said I cant understand how you can lower yourself to his level and be calculated, methodical and cold blooded in your act of justice. There are many other ways to make him suffer his crime and by his beliefs far more worrying to him than to die by lethal injection.

At no point have I ever insinuated that I feel nothing for those who suffered at his hand in fact I find his behaviour abhorrent but still cannot bring myself to agree with his execution.
I would certainly agree with a life custodial sentence with no right or chance of parole. Throw in hard labour on a prison pig farm or a new boyfriend for good measure.

Renato1 (Renato) · #**119** 17-05-2015, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans Tucker

It was proven Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was guilty without a doubt. What he and his brother did was calculated, methodical and cold blooded without any regard for the innocent individuals. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev deserves to die for his crime pure and simple. You can't compare his case to some poor individual that suffered a miscarriage of justice...the mountain of evidence and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev own confession proves his guilt and total lack of remorse. If Eight-year-old Martin Richard was my brother or son I would have no hesitation to rid the world of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. Now the endless appeals begin...I feel for Boston and the victims of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev crime

Actually, I'd prefer if they put Tsarnaev in solitary for 20 years, and then shot him.

This would be very merciful, as he wouldn't have to suffer for as long as his amputee victims will have to.
Regards,
Renato

Joves (Aaron) · #**120** 17-05-2015, 01:12 AM

I personally believe the tax payers dollar should not be wasted housing and feeding terrorist scum. Nor should it be wasted on inherently evil people that clearly have no chance of, or any right to, reform. Ivan Milat is another example. As is Martin Bryant. Even oxygen is wasted on them, I'm afraid. Put a bolt in their head.

As for the Bali fellas, I'm a little torn. They were selfish and stupid, yes. Deserve the death penalty? Perhaps. Deserve to be emotionally pushed and pulled, on death row/off death row, serve ten years, shot dead anyway... I don't think so. I think the way it was gone about... The spectacle... It was just wrong. Am I attending mass mourning sessions or buying into the whole "we just lost two of our finest" nonsense? Not at all. But I am very dismayed at the way it went down. They didn't deserve that.