That old Nikon v Canon discussion

[traveller (Bo)]

Hi all,
Time to refresh that old Nikon v Canon discussion and seek your opinions. Here is my current situation in a nutshell
1. I have an old Nikon D70s with a selection of fast Nikkor lenses.
2. I also have a Canon 40D which I modified for AP work (Baader BCF filter). But only a 50mm 1.8 and a couple of cheap slow Canon zooms.
3. I know the limitations of Nikons in median filtering.
4. I have a Nikkor - Canon adapter.

Here is what I would like to do:
1. Use the Canon for AP work with my ED80 and C8 (eventually).
2. Get another body for wide field work with my Sky Tracker.

So basically I am after another DSLR body for my Sky Tracker. Which model(s) would you recommend, given my situation above? I am on lookout for either a Tokina 11-16mm 2.8 or the Samyang 14mm 2.8, but want to sort out the body before the lens!

Thanks for all your help
Bo

[Rod771 (Rod)]

Canon 6D for wide field Very low noise ,wont work with the Tokina but the Samyang is very good.

[alocky (Andrew lockwood)]

I don't think the Nikon uses the star eating median filter anymore, even my old D200 took perfectly good wide fields. The latest D800 and D610 seem to be delivering perfectly good astro images - it all depends on how much you have tied up in those lenses.
You can always get a Nikon to canon adapter anyway...
Cheers
Andrew.

[traveller (Bo)]

Originally Posted by Rod771

Canon 6D for wide field Very low noise ,wont work with the Tokina but the Samyang is very good.

Not sure if I want to go FF yet, cost and other factors. Probably go with 60D as a step up from my 40D.

Originally Posted by alocky

I don't think the Nikon uses the star eating median filter anymore, even my old D200 took perfectly good wide fields. The latest D800 and D610 seem to be delivering perfectly good astro images - it all depends on how much you have tied up in those lenses.
You can always get a Nikon to canon adapter anyway...
Cheers
Andrew.

I have a Nikon-Canon adapter, so that's not an issue. The NEF v RAW is my main concern. Looked at D7000 a couple of years back, still think it's a viable option to CAnon 60D.

Please keep your suggestions coming!
Bo

[Steffen]

Nikon's new entry level D3300 has a low-noise 24MP (3.8µm) sensor and no AA filter. It'll be interesting to see how well it does with longer exposures.

Cheers
Steffen.

[JB80 (Jarrod)]

I guess it depends on what your budget is as to what model to get as it could be a number of different ones, a 6D is alright if you have the cash.

Personally I would stick with a Canon as certain software caters only for Canon.
I don't know how true that is today but it was certainly the case a few years back that Nikon had no support on things like Backyard EOS.

That said there are enough Nikon users so it can't be all that bad.

[LightningNZ (Cam)]

The Nikon D5100 is widely considered a *very* good performer for astrophotography. It's a sensitive, low-noise and high dynamic range sensor - scores very highly in DXOmark.

[gregbradley]

The Nikon Median filter issue was solved a while ago. I communicated with the engineer who is into astrophotography who worked with Nikon to handle it. It was the hot pixel suppression algorithim that was being applied to RAWs. It was too strong and its now been made much more sohisticated. I did not notice fine stars being eliminated by the camera when I used a Nikon D800e. Slight amp glow though which made long exposure noise reduction a good choice. It was a slight magenta cast around the bottom and sides. Not strong but there.

I think most modern cameras have advanced a great deal on low light high ISO performance which is what you need. In nutshell what you need is a camera capable of reasonably low noise in a 30 second ISO6400 shot on a summer's night. That narrows the field quite bit. Some will do ISO3200. Add to this the fact that ISO6400 is not equal across manufacturers and it becomes harder to evaluate. Fuji's ISO6400 is more like Nikons ISO4000. Sony's ISO6400 is more like Nikon's ISO8000 (if there were one). Nikon and Canon though seem to similar.

As far as I know the current market the best cameras for widefield nightscapes are:

Full Frame not in order of what is best:

1. Canon 6D, 1Dx, 5D3.
2. Nikon D4, D800, D800e, D600, D610 the new Nikon DF.
3. Sony A7, A7r

APSc:
1. Fuji XE1, XE2, XPro 1, XM1.
2. Sony Nex 3, 5 and 6 perhaps 7.
3. Canon and Nikon competing models.

Micro four thirds:
1. Olympus OMD EM1 and EM5.
Probably others but I am not that familiar with M43 cameras.

I would rate the Canon 6D and Sony A7r/Nikon D800e/D4/DF as the best of the full frames. I did a same shot, same tripod, same settings but different lens - I can post results, it was a superlative Zeiss 21mm F2.8 though on a 5D3 head to head to with A7r at my dark site.The Sony picked up lots of airglow and beautiful colour and noticeably brighter image whereas the Canon showed none or little and had a brown hue to everything. I was a bit surprised at the relatively poor Canon shot which I would not have been happy with. I started processing the Canon shot so there may be more in it that can be brought out. There are plenty of great 6D shots though. Never tried one but it seems to be the one. Nikon D800e was a tad cleaner than the Sony A7r but the noise is easily controlled. I think the Sony and Nikon engineers have set up the same sensor in different ways so the results aren't identical. Sony ISO6400 seems brighter than Nikon's ISO6400, plus Nikon seems to have taken a lower noise less microcontrast approach over Sony who seems to have gone for max detail and contrast and a tad more noise and a RAW which has some sort of noise suppression going on. I am not sure any maker makes a camera where RAW = untouched RAW anymore.

The Nikon DF is most likely the king of low noise night imaging as its the same sensor as the Nikon D4 only tweaked even a touch better.

In APSc world I think the choice is easier. Apart from computer control (you can wifi remote control XE2) Fuji is still the class leader as far as I am aware. Most Canon APSc seem very noisy. Not sure about the Nikons. Probably a lot cleaner. Different models use different manufacturers sensors. D7100 for example is a Toshiba whereas anything 16mp would be a Sony.Also amp glow would need to be tested for. There is an astro digital camera Yahoo site. I am sure there would be lots who could answer with direct experience.

Also consider the lens. Its really important in the system. The 2 best ultrawide angle lenses out there are the Nikon 14-24mm F2.8ED ($1700 lens) and the Fuji 14mm F2.8 lens (about $800). Both are sensational lenses and the Fuji has a small section top left and right - about 5% of the image which is not fully corrected, has zero distortion, is sharp, has a lockable manual focus ring, is metal, has an aperture ring. Nikon 14-24 is large, heavy and expensive but really none better. Nikon 18-35 is a possible lens to check but never used it. Reviews are hot though.
Samyang 14mm is popular but has moustache distortion. Getting a good ultra wide can be frustrating so consider this point. Most UWA have poor side and corner performance.

One of the best astro cameras I think is a modded Canon 5D2. That produces stunning images. They are down to about $1000 sometimes these days.

Sony A7r is the smallest and lightest full frame and is 36.4mp (same sensor as D800E) but no AA filter (as opposed to 2 selfcancelling AA filters). There is an A7 which is about $1500 which is 24mp (same as Nikon D610) which makes it the cheapest full frame camera on the market although 6D is about $1800 or a bit less. A Vixen Polarie will load above its stated weight limit but the A7 would be one of the few cameras within the stated limit. Not that relevant really considering the Polarie will handle a Nikon D800e and heavy 14-24 lens once the tightening screws are tightened hard.

As you can see I am now a fan of the Sony but really a 6D, Nikon full frame or Sony would be a fabulous camera and Fuji X series also fabulous.
As far as Canon/Nikon APSc not so sure. Canon got involved like everyone else, in the megapixel race so 18-24mp for an APSc sensor does not sound like a good formula for low noise high ISO performance (small pixels = more noise usually).

DPreview.com has a studio tool where you can compare the various camera models ISO performance side by side. I would start there. It won't show amp glow though.

One last consideration. Some Nikon models have a built in time lapse function and intervalometer which is very nice. Sony has it as an app you buy and install on Nex 5, 6, A7 A7r cameras which is very similar to the Nikon (a bit harder to work out but works the same way).

My 2C.

Greg.

[skysurfer]

Originally Posted by Rod771

Canon 6D for wide field Very low noise ,wont work with the Tokina but the Samyang is very good.

Indeed, here results from the Samyang 14mm f/2.8 squeezed to f/4(yesterday night):

http://pix.skysurfer.eu/20140113-northwest-4sec.jpg

http://pix.skysurfer.eu/20140113-southeast-4sec.jpg

http://pix.skysurfer.eu/20140113-north-8sec.jpg

Exposed just 4 secs (last 8 secs) on iso 6400. Decent pictures almost grain-free. Even ISO 12500 has an acceptable grain with the 6D. Single RAW frames, processing done with Darktable.
Sorry for the unrecognizable constellations on the 'north' picture, it is taken in Holland and none of these constellations is visible from AU.

[traveller (Bo)]

Thanks everyone (esp Greg) for your input.
At this stage, I am 80% certain I will stick with the APS-C format, as FF is simply too pricey.
The suggestion for Fuji and Sony simply added to my already addled mind
Obviously each camera/make will have their short falls and we all know the amazing ability of AP in sucking up the dollars
My shortlist so far is (second hand market only)
Nikon: D5100, D7000.
Canon: 60D
Fuji: XE1
The Nikon DF is certainly on the shopping list once I win the lotto.
As for lenses, I will stick with the Tokina with the cropped sensor, unless a good Samyang comes along. The Nikkor 12-24 will be considered with the DF.
Thanks again for your comments, I will look up the forums and DP site as Greg suggested.
Cheers,
Bo