On-line: NBN Petition

[Paul Haese]

Love reading about the squeals and groans. If you can't download video and your illegal movie downloads at 26mbits a second then there is something wrong. Current speeds are less than half of that in general depending on load. In the end everyone will want mobile internet because that is the way people are going. There are more important things to address like health, education and paying off a massive debt to get wound up over if you can get 100mbits per second over the internet.

I will not be signing any petition. Besides anyone knows that petitions never work. Try writing a letter to your local member with a pen and paper and sending that via post. You will get a lot more done by doing that. Petitions get looked at and then deleted. Letters have to have a response by the local member.

[The_bluester (Paul)]

I would not describe what I have written as squeals and moans. And you can take veiled accusations about piracy and keep them. Like almost everyone connected to the internet I would have to admit to holding some content not gained by "traditional" means, however I have a pretty vast library of content that I bought and paid for thank you very much and everything else is very much in the minority. If I would buy more content downloaded over the net if I had a faster connection rather than going out and buying a DVD is open to question. Most of what I have downloaded is stuff that I can readily record from FTA TV but until recently could not do with any reasonable quality.

And I have not signed the petition because I agree that petitions are not worth the paper they are written on, and this one is not even on paper.

When the opponents of the NBN, and/or proponents of the new model can demonstrate how equity funding (Relying on an eventual payback with a return to attract investors) can be used to build hospitals or public schools or other similar COST only infrastructure then the "Get the priorities right" calls will start to hold some weight with me. But good luck getting someone to buy bonds to finance a non profit model. I regard public hospitals as non profit only from one point of view myself. They create plenty of poifit, but those profits end up spread around society in an intangible way that you can not really put a dollar figure on and certainly can not round up and give back to investors.

In the mean time we still just see variations of "Get your priorities straight", "Expensive waste", "25mbps should be enough for anybody" and "People are all going mobile"

Regards the "Explosion" of mobile data, do people realise that phone data plans are included in these figures? Try getting a plan without data included nowadays. And regardless of that, show me someone with a fixed line at home who does not have the whiz bang smartphone swing over to a home wifi network when they get home for reliability, speed and cost reasons? And any other time they can find an open network too.

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

I am happy for anyone to have FTTH. Just don't expect me to pay for it for you.

I am a IT teleworker for 60% of the week. I am currently building a network virtualization lab in a datacenter across town, pulling down images ISO images from a site in the USA, hosting teleconference calls and running webex training sessions across Asia Pacific region, all across my current 9/1Mbps link.

The other 40% I am a mobile IT consultant. Yes, working for an international IT organisation is a 24/7 job

[wasyoungonce (Brendan)]

Originally Posted by tlgerdes

And is that a problem? ....

It's a problem when it is touted as an alternative to FTTH when FTTH min upload will be 10x more.

Its a problem when Turnbull failed to mention this right until late in election time so it cannot be absorbed by the community.

Its a problem because I will never even get that speed with the coalitions plans due to the RIM infrastructure in our estate (and as with many other estates) and guess what my upload speed is...? Its a problem as the only way off this is FTTH, we have no HFC cable either.

No soup for me!

edit:
regarding petitions. Well I petitioned Telstra way back 2002/03/04 to get out RIM upgraded to ADSL minimux. Luckilly I knew it was an integrated RIM that could be upgraded! Finally Telstra did something about it after much pressure, letter writing, letterbox drops etc etc. Telstra wanted to sell me satellite....meaning modem phone thru net and satellite down. What a croc.

So eventually petitioning worked. One of the things I asked Telstra was why don't they look it as a business opportunity. Problem was Telstra was so hell bent on saying no they cannot see past their nose.

In our case unless the pairgain is removed I/We will never get speeds approaching the coalitions FTTN.

[The_bluester (Paul)]

Originally Posted by tlgerdes

I am happy for anyone to have FTTH. Just don't expect me to pay for it for you.

Refer again to the equity funding model. And assuming that once the nature of the change sinks in, the government is able to use the same model to fund the new plan and you still consider that you are paying for it, you will pay two thirds as much for the community to get a fraction of the result. If they can not make the quity funding model fly and have to pay for it out of taxes then we really WILL pay for it out of our tax money. If it does not fly and they don't do that either and just throw the doors open to the conservative holy grail of "infrastructure competition" then we will pay in subscriptions, and then again in tax money handed out to induce carriers to not utterly ignore the less profitable areas.

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by wasyoungonce

It's a problem when it is touted as an alternative to FTTH when FTTH min upload will be 10x more.

Its a problem when Turnbull failed to mention this right until late in election time so it cannot be absorbed by the community.

Its a problem because I will never even get that speed with the coalitions plans due to the RIM infrastructure in our estate (and as with many other estates) and guess what my upload speed is...? Its a problem as the only way off this is FTTH, we have no HFC cable either.

No soup for me!

edit:
regarding petitions. Well I petitioned Telstra way back 2002/03/04 to get out RIM upgraded to ADSL minimux. Luckilly I knew it was an integrated RIM that could be upgraded! Finally Telstra did something about it after much pressure, letter writing, letterbox drops etc etc. Telstra wanted to sell me satellite....meaning modem phone thru net and satellite down. What a croc.

So eventually petitioning worked. One of the things I asked Telstra was why don't they look it as a business opportunity. Problem was Telstra was so hell bent on saying no they cannot see past their nose.

In our case unless the pairgain is removed I/We will never get speeds approaching the coalitions FTTN.

So do you need 10x more, or do you want 10x more?

I want a Ferrari, don't need one, but I want one never the less.

So you have fibre to the RIM now, OK, if they replaced the RIM with new infrastructure that gives a better last mile experience over the existing copper, and triples your speed at 1/3 the cost, would that satisfy your requirements?

If I was Telstra I wouldn't upgrade anything until I had certainty from the government that whatever I spent on infrastructure upgrades, along with forecast revenues and profits, was going to be repaid regardless.

They run a business, not a charity. The Telstra charity disappeared in 1995.

Seems as though everyone needs new tyres on their car, but would rather replace the car, than the tyres, even though they cant really afford the a new car without going deeper into debt, and don't actually know how much it is really going to cost them.

I built a new house recently, I could have done it 10 years ago, but back then I would have had to borrow 100% of the cost, and sacrificed buying new cars and private school education for my kids. I decided to wait 8 years, saved 70% of the money myself, bought and paid off 2 new cars, 2 overseas holidays, furnished my new house, sent my kids to private school and only borrowed the final 30%, of that 30% 2 years on I only have 10% mortgage value against my home. Careful planning with requirements and money has reaped dividends for my family, instead of stress.

[wasyoungonce (Brendan)]

Trevor...I would be happy with ADSL2+ but I will not get this on a RIM as telstra stopped top hat roll outs and the coalition NBN will not better my current infrastructure without removing the pair gain...which will not happen...period! They (Telstra re: top hat) stopped this due to their foxtel interests.

Funny thing when campaigning Telstra to upgrade the RIM. I found the infrastructure project manager for our estate. He said that Telstra told him what infrastructure was required for the estate and they installed this...which was minimum spec required. Telstra knew this at the time so did the manager (edit: this is the way it was done back then, around 1994~6, and I suspect still is).

1995 was Telstra name change...but government still held many many shares till 2007 and T3. Telstra was then in a position of market domination (1995 ~2004 and still is). The reason I started petitioning was due to Telstra going to Yarraglen (15klms away) and installing ASDL infrastructure free as part of the incumbent government's "broadband for the bush" deals.

Meanwhile back at Lilydale, a suburb of Melbourne...no soup for you, stuck on dial up @18.5K...yes Tesltra petitioned the government & senate (way back) to lower their copper transmission obligations for voice carriage to 18.5kbps min speeds.

So if I didn't petition I would still be stuck on 18.5Kbps, like many many others on RIMs. (edit: our RIM services 450 houses or so and has one minimux servicing 96 homes with ADSL1), the rest...no soup (no ADSL) for you. Is this fair to them?

Sometimes the government has to step in and fix things and this is one of those times. I see the FTTH NBN the way of the future, a basic right for infrastructure just like dams, hospitals, schools etc.

[The_bluester (Paul)]

To put a different car spin on it. Because it is not the first time the rolls royce/Ferrari comparo has been raised.

If you were a family of mother, father and one child but had quadruplets on the way, if you knew that it would be almost completely worthless when the birth came, what logic would there be in buying a Barina when you KNOW that in a few months you need a Tarago? Sure the Barina will do the job right now, but you just KNOW you are sinking depreciation into something that is not going to do the job in the future and will not return the money you put into it.

[JohnH]

Originally Posted by tlgerdes

I am happy for anyone to have FTTH. Just don't expect me to pay for it for you.

I am a IT teleworker for 60% of the week. I am currently building a network virtualization lab in a datacenter across town, pulling down images ISO images from a site in the USA, hosting teleconference calls and running webex training sessions across Asia Pacific region, all across my current 9/1Mbps link.

The other 40% I am a mobile IT consultant. Yes, working for an international IT organisation is a 24/7 job

+1 on that - home or mobile 90% of the time. Work with India and China - a lot - desktop sharing/conferencing/whiteboarding moving reasonable large files around. NBN is not required here nad by the way will not improve performance as the bottleneck is in the intercity and international links - not the local hop to the ISP which is that will be super fast with FTTH. It's an 8 lane on ramp to nowhere for now...

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by wasyoungonce

I see the FTTH NBN the way of the future, a basic right for infrastructure just like dams, hospitals, schools etc.

Absolutely and anyone who says otherwise is really no different to those in the 1920's who lambasted the designers of the Sydney Harbour Bridge for having 6 lanes assigned for cars ...since when the bridge was opened in 1932, New South Wales had a total car pool of about 10,000 and a population of only about 1 million. In 2013, over a million cars pass over the bridge a week, from a city population of nearly 5 million and growing at over 65,000 a year.

Designers, builders AND governments need to have vision for the future.

Mike

[JohnH]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Absolutely and anyone who says otherwise is really no different to those in the 1920's who lambasted the designers of the Sydney Harbour Bridge for having 6 lanes assigned for cars ...since when the bridge was opened in 1932, New South Wales had a total car pool of about 10,000 and a population of only about 1 million. In 2013, over a million cars pass over the bridge a week, from a city population of nearly 5 million and growing at over 65,000 a year.

Designers and builders need to have vision for the future.

Mike

Nice anology but the bridge is hard to upgrade (so they built the tunnel) whereas FTTN can become FTTH as and when required/justified (or you can pay to connect if you want it now) so this is not an either or choice. This is more like you having a quad width driveway while the bridge is left at 2 lanes. Oh yes, even worse, you HAVE to have your driveway upgraded - even if you only have one car....

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by JohnH

+1 on that - home or mobile 90% of the time. Work with India and China - a lot - desktop sharing/conferencing/whiteboarding moving reasonable large files around. NBN is not required here nad by the way will not improve performance as the bottleneck is in the intercity and international links - not the local hop to the ISP which is that will be super fast with FTTH. It's an 8 lane on ramp to nowhere for now...

FTTH won't solve the problems that business requires for global competition. Latency is the killer for next gen realtime apps, current 250-300ms to US or Europe won't be solved by last mile fibre.

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by JohnH

Nice anology but the bridge is hard to upgrade (so they built the tunnel) whereas FTTN can become FTTH as and when required/justified (or you can pay to connect if you want it now) so this is not an either or choice. This is more like you having a quad width driveway while the bridge is left at 2 lanes. Oh yes, even worse, you HAVE to have your driveway upgraded - even if you only have one car....

Guess it depends on how you see it. To me, and most others, fibre to the home is like making sure the Sydney Harbour Bridge had 6 car lanes and 4 train lines from the get go in order to handle Sydney traffic well into the future. The Coalitions fibre to the node plan is like building 8 lanes of road and 4 train lines to the bridge and then deciding on a 2 car and 1 train line Bridge to take everyone across...just to hopefully save a relatively small amount and finish it a little sooner. This is totally irresponsible management in my opinion.

Mike

[gregbradley]

Done

Greg.

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

Guess it depends on how you see it. To me, and most others, fibre to the home is like making sure the Sydney Harbour Bridge had 6 car lanes and 4 train lines from the get go in order to handle Sydney traffic well into the future. The Coalitions fibre to the node plan is like building 8 lanes of road and 4 train lines to the bridge and then deciding on a 2 car and 1 train line Bridge to take everyone across...just to hopefully save a relatively small amount and finish it a little sooner. This is totally irresponsible management in my opinion
Mike

the 8 lane road, 4 trainline is to your street, then you get the 2 lane, 1 train driveway to yourself

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Originally Posted by tlgerdes

the 8 lane road, 4 trainline is to your street, then you get the 2 lane, 1 train driveway to yourself

I give up....

[bobson (Bob)]

There are more important things to address like health, education and paying off a massive debt to get wound up over if you can get 100mbits per second over the internet.

Health and education would have most benefits from NBN besides many other advantages for business in general.

bob

[gary]

Originally Posted by JohnH

Work with India and China - a lot - desktop sharing/conferencing/whiteboarding moving reasonable large files around. NBN is not required here ...

Hi John,

Thanks for the post.

I myself have 35 years continual experience in the field of professional computing.

Could you possibly share with me what your best estimate of your own
internet bandwidth requirements were 30 years ago?

Could you also possibly share with me, with respect your own usage, what you
would have regarded in terms of bytes as being "a reasonably large file"
30 years ago and what you regard as a reasonably large file in your work
today?

Alternatively, could you possibly recollect what your hard disk storage requirements
were 30 years ago and what they approximately might be today, including
any stored in "the cloud"?

If your experiences are anywhere like most Australians, I am sure your requirements
for bandwidth, storage and computing speed will have exploded during this period.

For many IceInSpace readers, their bandwidth and storage requirements 30 years
ago may have been zero.

Cisco have a web site that provides their own forecasts for networking
in key regions of the world here -
http://www.cisco.com/web/solutions/s....html#~Country

In Australia they currently estimate that peak Internet traffic will grow 2.9-fold from
2012-2017, a compound annual growth rate of 24%.

In 2012, they estimate Internet traffic in Australia was 282 Petabytes per month
but will grow to 650 Petabytes per month in 2017.

They estimate that Australian Internet traffic in 2017 will be equivalent to 85x
the volume of the entire Australian Internet in 2005.

They also estimate that in 2017, the gigabyte equivalent of all movies ever made
will cross Australia's IP networks every 8 hours.

... the bottleneck is in the intercity and international links ...

That is incorrect. The primary bottlenecks are in the last mile.

The Australian city links already have a fiber backbone.

According to Southern Cross Cables who operate a network of 28,900 km of
trans-Pacific submarine fiber optic cables including links between Australia and
the United States, current available bandwidth capacity between the two countries
is in excess of current demand.

In their own words, installing successive generations of transmission technology to
each end of the cables has been comparatively easy and inexpensive.

For example, in 2008 each of their cables had a capacity of 120 gigabits/s.
By the end of 2012, by upgrading the transmitters, each had a capacity of
1000 gigabits/s (1 terabits/s).

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Mt Kuring-Gai NSW 2080
02 9457 9049

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by strongmanmike

I give up....

Spoken like a true champion

[Ausrock (Chris)]

It's been an interesting thread...........seeing the various comments from those who appear to believe they are entitled to the highest available speed service to those who are more than able to exist with what is currently available to them. Seeing those who appear to have difficulty in differentiating between what they truely need and what they want.

There's no argument that some businesses would definitely benefit from an optimum service but the reality is that the vast majority of users don't need more than the best service currently available.