The amatuer/non-expert helpline thread

[wolfman]

No problems, as you will see there are better EP's out there but they come at a cost, and if a lot of your viewing is not done from quality dark sites then some of this higher quality is wasted anyway.
I was trying to keep to your origional price rather than just blowing it out of the water for the sake of talking big names most of us dream about as well.
Forget anything smaller than 10mm he will never use it.

[J.A.L]

Originally Posted by wolfman

No problems, as you will see there are better EP's out there but they come at a cost, and if a lot of your viewing is not done from quality dark sites then some of this higher quality is wasted anyway.
I was trying to keep to your origional price rather than just blowing it out of the water for the sake of talking big names most of us dream about as well.
Forget anything smaller than 10mm he will never use it.

That is great. I like seeing the comparison between what can be purchased cheaper and the dearer brands it's so complicated I suppose more info better as long as it works with the telescope , it all helps, I was meaning from what John said that I could get maybe one top and he may know so I can atleast just compare what the differences are even for future. Then I can go by other suggestions for in between or something for one other that does the job.

I actually screen shot your list and wanted to see what his would be, you hit right on in the price, it's fantastic. I think it is all great advice.

We actually live in a more rural area too so have been lucky to get darker nights especially when the power is out which often happens, we haven't got highways or even main roads very close so it is great knowing all the info. for any setting. I've added the nothing smaller than 10mm to my notes I tihnk that is a great tip. I've been trying to shorten options .

[wavelandscott (Scott)]

Some time ago in another thread, ausastronomer made these comments that I think are correct and match my own thoughts on eyepiece selection...
ausastronomer said:
"A $50 eyepiece in a $5,000 telescope gives you a $50 view

A $5,000 eyepiece in a $50 telescope gives you a $50 view

A $500 eyepiece in a $5,000 telescope gives you a million $$$$ view

Two things to remember:-

1) An optical system is as bad as the weakest component in it.

2) An optical system is only as good as the weakest component in it." end quote

In my opinion, a few "quality" eyepieces are over time a better value than a whole box full of others...low power, medium power and a high power are sufficient...

Good Luck and Clear Skies!

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by J.A.L

P.S - John B - what would you change your dream list to now for our telescope out of curiosity? I also really liked how you explained a simple extra injection of cash would get a superior and obviously an EP that would "last"/ be used more I really like knowing that as that is how I think. I have thought about going a little higher but haven't got a kid to sell yet and would probably not go that way Maybe a kidney or just some extra overtime might be the go lol By the way it was you and I was hoping you'd see this post, I was too gutless to just PM you, plus I can compare everyone's likes dislikes this way to get a broarder idea across many interests and purposes even though the main goal of almost everyone is a good experience and fun exploring their telescopes abilities. This is such a great way to get advice.

Originally Posted by ausastronomer

Hi JAL,

My long term list would comprise.

40mm Pentax XW
26mm Nagler T5
13mm Ethos
10mm Pentax XW
7mm Pentax XW

Hi JAL,

This scope is also a top quality scope and deserving of high quality eyepieces. The 2500mm focal length of the scope does change things a bit. Primarily because in an F8 scope the 13mm Ethos would be a medium power DSO eyepiece but in the F10 scope it becomes a high power eyepiece and the 100 deg FOV of the Ethos is wasted in such a situation.

I would change the list to:-

40mm Pentax XW (62X)
26mm Nagler T5 (96X)
17mm Nagler T4 (147X)
12mm Nagler T4, 13mm Nagler T6 or 12mm Pentax XF (200X)
10mm Pentax XW (250X)

You could certainly swap several other similar eyepieces into this mix and end up with an equally good set of eyepieces. Something else to consider would be deleting the 26mm and 17mm Naglers and just getting a 20mm T5 Nagler which reduces the number of eyepieces by one. However, I think the 17mm Nagler would be an excellent workhorse eyepiece in that scope.

I will add this. Any optical system regardless of how expensive and good it is, is only as good as the weakest link in it. If you are going to buy cheap eyepieces and accesories like barlows and diagonals, you may as well have bought a cheap telescope, which is not what you did. A $4,000 telescope with a $400 eyepiece works how it was designed to work. A $4,000 telescope with a $40 eyepiece gives a $40 view, IMO.

Where you should go now, considering you can't afford the lot? I would buy the 17mm Nagler for about 150X. On the basis that the scope has GOTO and tracking it would occupy 95% of focuser time on everything. You can add another eyepiece each "present time", finances permitting.

Originally Posted by wolfman

Forget anything smaller than 10mm he will never use it.

I don't necessarily agree with this and IMO it is a generalisation that is incorrect to make. While it is low priority at present that he get to 250X in his scope, to say "he won't ever get there" is incorrect and something he in fact should strive for, as part of a longer term plan.

The ability to get a scope to high power is "seeing" dependant and "thermal equilibrium" dependant. Seeing can be very much location dependant. In other words some areas have consistently bad seeing and some have consistently good seeing. Unfortunately most people who cannot get their scope to high power blame it on poor seeing, when in fact their scope has failed to reach thermal equilibrium. Thermal equilibrium is where the temperature of the air inside the optical system is the same as the surrounding atmosphere. Closed tube telescope designs like Schmidt Cassegrains, Schmidt Newts, Mak Newts, Mak Casses and Meade's new Advanced Ritchey Chretien are susceptible to thermal equilibrium issues. Good observing and setup habits alleviate a lot of these thermal issues. For example in summer when the temperature ranges from 40c by day to 15c at night, try to keep the scope as cool as possible during daytime hours. Indoors in an airconditioned room is ideal. In this situation when you take it outside at night, the temperature differential will be minimal. In winter when temperatures drop to 5c at night, leave the scope outdoors where it will stay cooler, don't keep it in a warm house. Ideally you should try to set the scope up in it's observing position with as much cool down time as possible. I have seen countless occasions when inexperienced observers have pulled their scope out of a warm car, set it up in single digit temperatures, stuck an eyepiece in and gone, "Ahhhhhh seeing is crap". In fact their scope isn't cooled and the seeing is excellent.

I get my 10" scope to over 250X on MORE THAN 60 % of observing sessions on Jupiter and Saturn. I regularly get it to over 300X on those targets. Many fellow IISers have viewed Jupiter and Saturn in my 10" scope at over 300X. I often get to over 500X in the 18" scope, on high contrast targets. Neither scope will go high when not cooled properly.

Cheers,
John B

[J.A.L]

This is all great info. A 17mm is one I'm narrowing in on as first choice and still processing the combinations of whether to go Barlow or not, I see both sides but I still have plenty of time too and many options and sums to consider. May go with one first even and a gift voucher towards another and see if family would like to also get small gift vouchers type of thing.

For a laugh in regard to your comments on climatising; ofcourse it was me that paniced when James first set it up. Since it had been years of my overtime and any extra money (so as not to take away from our normal financial reasponsibilities I contributed to) it took me awhile to save so I was keen for it to be his dream one, with his interest and knowledge I found it important to start closer to his needs or rather a bit higher so he'd grow with it, and also so upgrading may never be necessary or atleast for many years maybe if our future child gets interested. And it was a lot of money to me!!.

So he set it up and I eagerly looked through it to see what all that money bought and I was "oh my god you can't see anything and it's blury and was panicing binoculars were the same" but in a little less lady like terms and asking stupid things like is the lens cover off (which yes I know don't really exist like on cameras ) and James just puts his hand on my shoulder and says it's ok it has to cool down and climatise to the air. I thought that was weird and he started explaining in technical terms so I quickly agreed as you are all probably thinking typical women . So I felt like an idiot the first time I learnt about climitising it. Now it stays in it's paded box it came in when not used in a cool room in our house on concret floor. I actually started looking at cases before EP's but they are pretty dear and James could probably make one himself in the future or for now we can wait and get EP's first to do more with it

[Louwai (Bryan)]

Does all this research, Has a reasonable interest in hubby's toys, AND contributes money to purchase said toys..

Can I have a wife like you. PLEEEEASE !!!!!!!!!!

[Alchemy (Clive)]

what a lucky guy!

as far as the Barlows go you will probably find the televue pwermates to be about the best on the market, but not the cheapest. i have 2 and would like a third, but i only use them for imaging.

the views previously expressed by others give a good overview, some of the eyepieces could be a bit out of your budget, IMHO you would be best off getting one really good one as he will keep it for years and it will always be a pleasure to use.

i personally prefer the televue ones: naglers, panoptics would be my choice but some of the others listed are certainly quality items.

target your choice depending on what its for, planetary , widefield , moon etc.

cheers Al

[BluMoon (Guy)]

Hi J.A.L
I do not want you as my wife....however I DID insist my wife read your orgional post for future referance!!!!I'ts my 40th this year.
Good luck with the purchase....I am sure your Hubby will be thrilled at whatever you get him.

[wolfman]

40mm Pentax XW (62X)
26mm Nagler T5 (96X)
17mm Nagler T4 (147X)
12mm Nagler T4, 13mm Nagler T6 or 12mm Pentax XF (200X)
10mm Pentax XW (250X)

$699
$819
$535
$499
$455
TOTAL- $3007

A far cry from the $300 to $500 she wanted to spend, yes they are the best EP's you can get, but has she really been helped from all this, or has this whole thing made her feel overwhelmed and now too worried to make a decision on a gift for her husband?
Maybee sometimes we should respect what poeple want (and can afford to) spend, rather than puff our chests out and send everyone reaching for the top shelf.
Good advice is fair enough but if someone wants to spend $200 for instance then recomend the best you know within that price rather than saying its all **** and only buy that $820 Nagler.

And I notice I get bagged for the nothing under 10mm comment but I dont see one on you list? A bit hypocritical, I only made that comment 'cause it will be the least used for now.

[J.A.L]

There are so many that's for sure, I never realised.

Atleast I get a good picture now, especially for future. I agree and had started thinking I should just get one he would get a lot of use of. I was worried to get one too cheap but atleast now realising just how dear they get I feel better deciding to just get one if it is a better quality and more so better value for money. Atleast I have the information and it may be better I tell him yet. This leg work will no doubt help him and my notes plus all of what you guys have helped with.

Although he obviously is fine with focal lengths and how it all works he then has an interest again not only with astronomy but all the many theories and I've still even heard him wonder about the FOV as you guys call it, he even said something fancier to my ears something like apparant field of view. I know that affects your outcome on top of just picking a mm size. So he would no doubt be confused himself.

In the end, I atleast know from knowing him I don't need an unltra wide, Barlow may interest him but to begin with a "work horse" suggestion that many have offered would most likely suit him and be around 500, maybe cheaper. I get a feeling Pentax and TeleVues seem good brands to go for. As I said what I read of Naglers I realised myself they were like the beesknees and top end and I felt it was too hard to choose one of them myself. I don't think James would get one of them at this stage anyway, but I know in the future after more use he would be keen.

As I say though I certainly appreciate all the help. I was really confused before so makes no difference but I atleast now have confirmation and a bigger picture view. We normally try to invest in any purchase, hobby or just houshold that won't need updating, we've always thought a little extra can be worth it especially while we don't have kids as it changes your priorities when they come along. With EP's though a little bit extra can be a lot though, but it is good to know that now. An informed desicion atleast despite the difficulties.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Given comments in your last post I'd go with:

40mm Paragon for widest apparent field of view (AFOV) - based on reports mainly on cloudynights.com

20mm Pentax XW for general purpose "workhorse" - based on my exp with 7,10,14mm XWs; amazing EPs - do some things better than Naglers. Amazing optical performance and the best made EPs I've ever seen ito fit, finish & build quality.

... And if it's got to be a barlow, I'd go for a low power one to get more use out of it: Antares 1.6x 2" barlow. On it's own it magnifies 1.5-1.7x. Add a 2" barrel extension you get about 2.0-2.2x depending on the EP. And it is a very good quality Japanese made barlow. You have to order this from o/s I think. I got mine from Scopestuff. Or for not much more money you could skip the barlow and get 1 or 2 more excellent bang-for-buck EPs, eg Pentax XFs, TMB Planetaries, UO HD orthos in the 8-12mm range.

This selection is within your budget and a comprehensive set that covers pretty much everything from low to high powers.

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by wolfman

40mm Pentax XW (62X)
26mm Nagler T5 (96X)
17mm Nagler T4 (147X)
12mm Nagler T4, 13mm Nagler T6 or 12mm Pentax XF (200X)
10mm Pentax XW (250X)

$699
$819
$535
$499
$455
TOTAL- $3007

A far cry from the $300 to $500 she wanted to spend, yes they are the best EP's you can get, but has she really been helped from all this, or has this whole thing made her feel overwhelmed and now too worried to make a decision on a gift for her husband?
Maybee sometimes we should respect what poeple want (and can afford to) spend, rather than puff our chests out and send everyone reaching for the top shelf.
Good advice is fair enough but if someone wants to spend $200 for instance then recomend the best you know within that price rather than saying its all **** and only buy that $820 Nagler.
All that does is make you look like a wanker!
And I notice I get bagged for the nothing under 10mm comment but I dont see one on you list? A bit hypocritical, I only made that comment 'cause it will be the least used for now.

You have clearly shown an inability to:-

a) read what the original poster JAL posted
b) "read between the lines" of what JAL posted
c) read what I posted.

You need to come to grips with the fact that when a wife buys the husband a $6,000 telescope as a gift, the following applies:-

1) The wife loves the husband a lot
2) The husband is fairly serious about astronomy and will appreciate a $500 eyepiece a lot more than a $50 eyepiece.
3) The family is not financially challenged to the extent that an extra $200 spent on an eyepiece is going to change the future course of their lives.

JAL stated she would prefer to spend around $300 but could afford to extend this to $500. Also note that JAL stated she would prefer to buy "ONE" eyepiece that her husband could "KEEP FOREVER". I don't rate any of the products you recommened as something to "keep forever". They are reasonable value for money products that you buy if you can't afford better. If you actually read what I wrote, you will note that I recommended JAL buy "ONE" eyepiece at this time, namely a 17mm Nagler T4 which costs $535. This is only $35 over her maximum upper limit and it is an eyepiece he can "keep forever". Also note that I recommended she add the other eyepieces one at a time in the future, not run out and spend $3,000 tomorrow. It's not a crime to be unable to afford premium equipment and if that's the case you buy the best you can afford, but you don't need to be Einstein to figure out that JAL can afford to buy a 17mm Nagler for her hubby.

This is all I am going to say and you can take comfort from the following:-


b) JAL and her husband won't have to resort to surviving on a diet of baked beans on toast for the next 3 years, if she buys her hubby a 17mm Nagler T4.

c) Her hubby will like it and keep it forever, or at least a very long time.

John B

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

I'm going to edit one post in this thread but it's very late so not going to send PMs but going to openly ask people to keep things civil - friendly if at all possible! - not get personal, especially not engage in personal attacks, derogatory language, name calling etc. If you disagree with another poster feel free to express your disagreement in a civil manner.

[J.A.L]

Sorry guys, good debates often help or bring up good issues but I never meant to make anyone's opinion less valued and I appreciate it is that important to you all. I knew it was a very personal desicion investing in EP's that's why I started this thread. I figured many opinions through your own experiences would give a lot of information yes, but, also then that information would be "right" regardless. Being so personal and so many things you can do to "twig" outcomes with use of different EP's and attachments and mirros and prisms etc, no one's opinion has not been valued only used as a resource to gear information.

I ended up telling James and showing him my notes. He had sort of wondered if that's what I was doing anyway, and there are still options for me to make something for him to have to open and as a keepsake for his 30th. We do plenty together to make this year more special than others with other dreams we made come true this year. It's just that it happens to be one of those birthdays suppose to be milestone not that he is seeing it that way mind you . Normally, considering other things we did this year, we'd skip our birthdays and Christmas and work on our life goals.

So that is why I wanted a broard picture, both in something cheaper to save money as we did already do a trip together as a dream accomplished type of thing, but it is true I also wanted to know about better quality to be sure, as can always recover before kids and put extra in type of thing.

Anyway, James was impressed with the notes, he read posts I singled out for him on this thread. He said he was wondering about FOV and in limbo himself and he was only thinking about it he didn't know he would get one so soon. All notes has saved him so much leg work and are all valuable
He appreciated the difficulties in chosing and he knows how little I know, I just look through it after he does all the work so he was not at all surprised I fessed up and thought it was wise I did.

So feel free to still do any reccommendations please.

I already took notes from other threads so he now will look here himself. I personaly would drop the Barlow idea from my research, just for now; but I think he is still hung up on the idea because it means, he thinks, that he can get more out of any EP he ever owns but then we need a diagonal mirror which I reminded him and he knew already. I think he has realised how valuable the research is and he would have changed his mind many times over himself had he had to do the leg work. As I said a few times now he is still very happy and this info and my notes from all your forums has been excellent and made it that much easier when it is already hard choice, even if this thread never existed and he had researched himself he'd umm and arrr forever about it. Now he's got a month and I actually understand him more when he talks which he notices

I said Pentax was what I was leaning towards or TeleVue depending on what I got and he had said he has never seen Pentax but atleast now we can do searches for specific things and get into the nitty gritty end of deciding.

Also, I was relieved he was not going to get a Meade EP anyway. I was hung up on it out of pure "fear" or more so lack of knowledge and now I am so greatful I didn't go that way and found this place. It may be hard for people who are so knowledgable to understand how much better I feel with just a little extra knowledge and all opinions.

[wolfman]

You have clearly shown an inability to:-

a) read what the original poster JAL posted
b) "read between the lines" of what JAL posted
c) read what I posted.

WOW! how will I ever get over the personal attack, Yawn!
I wasnt only refering to this thread but many others I have read.
It wasn't a personal attack on you or your opinion, I think your list is a perfect list of EP's, I just wondered if sometimes we miss the mark of what was origionally asked.
I'm happy to PM you if you wish to take it further.....

[Louwai (Bryan)]

Well, It looks like we may have lost a potential new member.

Very dissapointing.

I can't imagine why..

[mill (Martin)]

The only thing i can say is this: just buy what you can afford.
Whith less you can still be happy and like a lot of people, i too can't afford a nagler (even the cheapest one).
I am not accusing anyone but it looks like some people are in a race to get the best money can buy.
You won't tell your kid when he just has his licence to go out and buy an Ferrari because it is the best? (unless he/she has way too much money ).
A lot of people are using cheap plossls, eg: gso or meade, and are very happy with it, even if you get seagulls at the edges it doesnt matter , it is about the view in the middle.
Just my 2 cents here.
Ps: if you can afford to buy expensive eyepieces then by all means do buy them, if you cant, then buy cheap ones, and that will keep everyone happy.