It Comes Down to Go-To vs Dobsonian + Argo Navis?

[GH1967]

Astronomy, or more to the point, the gear to look at stars, is too complicated!

This forum, and other astronomical boards, are doing my head in. So many new words and acronyms....took me two days just to figure out what 'EP' meant

I know zilch about astronomy other than I look in one end of a scope and see stars out the other end. I'm not even scientifically minded, more of a humanities-type person, but I really love star gazing and want to seriously get into it. I find planetariums complicated and the idea of constantly gazing and looking at charts a bit of a turn-off.

As I understand it, it comes down to this with a budget of about $4,000:

I can get something like an 8 inch Meade LX90 or one of the orange Celestrons GO-TO's that solve my navigation issues well within my budget. But they are a tad messier to set up and you simply cannot see as much through them as a dobsonian.

On the other hand, I can get a large-ish Meade Lightbridge, easy to set-up despite its size and really see some serious stuff (aperture, aperture, aperture!), BUT other than the Argo Narvis which looks/sounds complex for a newbie like me (228 pages of instructions anyone!?) Dobsonians are limited in that they have no GO-TO type features such as tracking and tours etc.

So is there a simple scope that balances some DSO visualising with a handy navigation instrument, or have I pretty-well summed it up?

Any feedback is appreciated, thanks.

P.S is the future GO-TO large aperture Dobsonians that will be sold completely as one unit instead of having to modify/add-on with after-market devices? If so any idea when will we see these on the market?

[floyd_2 (Dean)]

You could take a look at the Orion XX14i for a scope that fits within your budget and includes an integrated object locator. Here's one link that has a few photos and good information.

Dean

[AstroJunk (Jonathan)]

The cheaper alternative is to join your local astro club and go out with them as often as you can so that you can get a good feel for what you enjoy viewing most and what level of technology you feel most comfortable with.

$4000 gets you an awfull lot of scope, but it can just as easilly get you an awfull lot of the WRONG scope!

The stars will wait for you, take your time and learn from the locals.

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Hi,

I agree with Jonathan 100% on this. $4,000 buys you a lot of scope but can also buy you a lot of the wrong scope.

I suggest you get to a club meet and have a practical hands on with some of the scopes there to see what suits "YOU". I wouldn't have a SCT if they were giving them away, but that's my personal preference. Tens of thousands of people worldwide, have them and love them. For mine they have issues that don't fit with my observing preferences. To others those issues I have, are non issues.

Heaps of Astro Societies around Sydney you can contact.

In addition, we have a monthly new moon Ice in Space observing get together on the lower Central Coast, at Mangrove Mountain. You would be more than welcome to come along. We will bring the telescopes, you bring the cigars, port, coffee, tim tams and party pies

I am guessing the next one will be on Sat 12th June. There will be all types of scopes set up there for you to use and look at. 8", 10" and 12" SCT's and some dobs from 10" to 20" with Argo Navis and Servocat GOTO. It would be wise to have a trial run before you buy, considering your budget.

Cheers,
John B

[acropolite (Phil)]

I agree with the others, meet up with some locals and try before yo buy.

FWIW I have an 8 inch LX90 and they are a wonderful tool; that said, my initial choice was a dob, but ministerial veto prevented getting the dob for asthetic reasons (you can't have that big ugly thing in the house). If I were doing the same again and had a budget of $4000 I'd be looking at one of the 16 inch dobs and equipping with an Argo Navis.

[sheeny (Al)]

All good advice here, I have to agree.

But just to address a couple of points in your post...

If you are interested in looking at the stars, planets and DSOs rather than astrophotography, then the largest Dob you can afford with an Argo Navis is the way to go. Don't be fooled by the manual... the Argo is very simple and easy to use. But before you jump in, my advice is:

• Get a planisphere so you can work out the bright stars in the sky. Should cost you less than $50. This will come in handy when you align your scope with the Argo.
• Get along to an astro club or star parties and look through other people's scopes to see what shakes your tree (Don't just take our word for it)
• Think seriously about a set of 7x50 or 10x50 binoculars, because they'll give you wide field views you can't get in a scope and don't cost a heap... and you'll always use them.

Al.

[GeoffW1 (Geoff)]

Originally Posted by GH1967

P.S is the future GO-TO large aperture Dobsonians that will be sold completely as one unit instead of having to modify/add-on with after-market devices? If so any idea when will we see these on the market?

Hi,

A most interesting thought. We already have small Dobs like that but...

From a marketing standpoint the large Dob gives you the most aperture for the money, and a good simple robust go-to would enhance such a Dob no end.

I think there is ample scope (oh no I can't believe I said that) for much further engineering refinement in the design of Dobs, and I have in mind some scheme which would reduce the need for constant collimation, as well as giving quick 2 star alignment.

I am trying out an ED refractor on a go-to GEM mount at the moment, but can see such a Dob in my immediate future still.

Cheers

[casstony]

It Comes Down to Go-To vs Dobsonian + Argo Navis?

Both types of computerised pointing systems work well. It's more important to find out what type of telescope suits you best; once you've done that you'll be happy with a goto computer or a push-to computer, whatever is appropriate for the scope.

Welcome to IIS

[norm]

Hi GH1957,

I agree with what others have said and with John's comments. $4000 can buy a lot of scope!

Highly recommend you come up to the Pony Club next month and check out whats on offer.

I'm more than happy to give you a run thru' of the Argonavis - and I consider myself a novice of that and yet to use its full potential.

I didn't need to configure and install the encoders on my scope for the Argo, but the help from Wildcard innovations is 2nd to none, so don't concern yourself too much with that. Once it's installed, that should be the end of that. As far as initializing for its use each time you view, literally < 2mins and your done (2 star alignment,, etc).

As mentioned previously familarise yourself with the night sky, one method is to download Stellarium and use that as a starter - brilliant bit of free Astro s/w.

But don't rush into it - check out whats on offer, think seriously if you're going to make the effort to get the scope out, set yourself realistic ambitions and send thru' any questions.

Cheers Norm

[gary]

Like others have advised, I highly recommend the value in looking through other
people's scopes at a large variety of objects before you go and buy a
telescope of your own.

The Pony Club is certainly a good venue to often see a variety of scopes and to
meet people only to happy to share the views and to pass on their advice and
experience.

We happen to design and manufacture the Argo Navis Digital Telescope Computer,
however, I can't over-emphasize how important it is to consider the optics and the
mount first ahead of any electronics.

In the end, the electronics is simply there to assist you in locating and identifying
"stuff". But it is the looking at the stuff that matters! For example, last weekend
at the South Pacific Star Party I assisted some colleagues with sky tours using
an 18" Obsession fitted with a 13mm TeleVue eyepiece and equipped with an
Argo Navis Digital Telescope Computer. Aligning the Argo Navis at the
beginning of the night took about a minute and each time we moved to a new
object probably took about a minute to dial it up on the Argo and then push the
scope to the target. The 99% of the rest of the time was then spent with
eyeballs looking at the object.

For example, when looking at M104, the Sombrero Galaxy, it was worth taking the
time to study the dark dust lane in the ring of the galaxy, taking the time to observe
the central bulge and with some further study, gradually discerning the faint halo
around the entire object.

The Argo Navis took the sting out of finding it and other objects, especially
when you have a long queue of eager people waiting in line, but it was
the looking at the object that mattered.

As other scope owners will advise, there are many additional considerations that
go into buying a scope. How will it be transported? Does it need to be lifted?
Where will it be stored? What is the quality of the mirror? Does the
mirror cool down quickly enough? What is the quality of the materials in the mount?
Is the mount smooth to operate? Does the mount suffer from vibrations?
Does the mount suffer from wind buffeting? Does the focuser provide smooth
operation? And many, many more. All best answered by looking at and using
other people's scopes and by talking to their owners.

Once you pick the right scope with the right eyepieces, then consider the
right electronics.

Good luck!

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au

P.S.

... the Argo Narvis which looks/sounds complex for a newbie like me (228 pages of instructions anyone!?)

As it says in the introductory paragraphs of the Argo Navis User's Manual -
"Don't be daunted by the size of this manual". The first thirty or so pages is
just about all you need and covers everything from putting in the batteries,
to performing the initial one time set-ups, to showing you how to align the unit,
all the way through to a tutorial on how to tour galaxies in the constellation
Fornax. The rest is reference material and describes every mode of operation in
great detail for those customers who really want to know everything. And if
there is still more they want to know, we are only an email or a phone call
away.

P.P.S

Argo Navis also supports the ServoCAT and SiTech slew and track systems,
so if you really want GOTO on a Dob, rather than just PUSHTO,
this is a popular choice.

[mic_m (Michael)]

There are large aperture commercial dobsonians that come with GOTO, tracking and digital setting circles as standard.

There is the Orion XTg GOTO dobsonian. The 12 inch model sells for $2810 at Sirius Optics.

There is also the Sky-Watcher SynScan dobsonian that comes with GOTO. However, these are not presently available in Australia.

There is the Sky-Watcher Autotracking dobsonain, which will track objects you locate yourself. The 12 inch version of this telescope is available at Andrews Communications for $2399.

Then there is the Orion XX12i ($1955), Orion XX14i ($2995) and the Orion XT12i ($1639), (plus the whole XTi series) which all have digital setting circles as standard, these are all sold at Sirius Optics.

As you can see packaged GOTO, tracking and digital setting circles is the present of commercial dobsonians!

In terms of the future of commercial dobsonians, I actually think that commercial producers need to spend time working on reducing the bulk and weight of their telescopes. A major issue for many people thinking of upgrading to a larger aperture dobsonian is the sheer size and weight of these instruments. Commercial dobsonian producers need to make something like this affordable to really make large aperture dobsonians truly accessible.

Also note that an SCT is not really any harder to setup than a dobsonian (actually the SCT will be lighter and a lot less bulky). Here is a video demonstration of the Celestron Nexstar 8 SE being setup and aligned. An SCT however, has other disadvantages, such as a larger central obstruction than a Newtonian telescope of the same aperture.

One other thing to note is that you will need a power supply similar to this to drive the mount of a GOTO or tracking telescope, or a whole lot of batteries.

I also agree with the advice given so far regarding choosing a telescope; join a local Astronomy club, talk to other amateurs and look through a number of different telescopes before making up your mind about which one is right for you.

Michael.

[gary]

Originally Posted by mic_m

Commercial dobsonian producers need to make something like this affordable to really make large aperture dobsonians truly accessible.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the post.

It is worth pointing out that the the picture of the telescope in your link is in fact
a commercial telescope, specifically an Obsession 18" f/4.2 UC, manufactured
by Obsession Telescopes of Lake Mills Wisconsin.

See http://www.obsessiontelescopes.com/t..._UC/index.html

The UC stands for Ultra Compact.

When Dave Kriege of Obsession introduced the 18" UC at the 2007 Texas
Star Party, he foresaw that with rising gasoline prices that many Americans would
be downsizing their vehicles and thus in response Obsession produced a telescope
with premium optics and mechanics that could fit in the trunk of just about
every car found in North America.

Obsession seemed to have got it right. Chosen by US Sky & Telescopes as
one of their much coveted "Hot Products" of the year for 2008, the UC series have
proven popular not only in North America but elsewhere in the world as well.

Now and then we get to operate an Obsession 18 UC at outreach stargazing events,
courtesy of the Three RIvers Foundation (3RF). It is a pleasure to use and since
the eyepiece height at the zenith is just under 2m, only a small step ladder or
box is required to assist most school children or not-so-tall adults.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place
Mount Kuring-Gai NSW 2080
Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au

[mic_m (Michael)]

Originally Posted by gary

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the post.

It is worth pointing out that the the picture of the telescope in your link is in fact
a commercial telescope, specifically an Obsession 18" f/4.2 UC, manufactured
by Obsession Telescopes of Lake Mills Wisconsin.

See http://www.obsessiontelescopes.com/t..._UC/index.html

Thanks Gary,

I probably should have been clearer about the context of the scope in my link, I’m sure there will be plenty of people that will appreciate your clarification.

As can be seen from the Obsession UC product page in the link above, compact commercial dobsonians are expensive; their price point is beyond the budget of most amateurs.

In the future, I would like to see a more affordable alternative to the Obsession form commercial mass producers such as GSO and Synta.

A move away from the bulky and heavy designs commercial mass producers such as GSO and Synta have pursued to this point, to an affordable, compact mass produced dobsonian telescope would be a revelation for the all those in the community seeking portable, large aperture.

Michael.

[GrahamL]

I wouldn't have a SCT if they were giving them away

A little harsh John

On a side note , whatever you guys are considering .. prices rideing on our high aus $ over the last year or so have made purchases quite pleasant ( unbelievably so ! ) .. I believe all the Asian companies in this market run accouints payable in US $.. whats cheap today may not be tommorow the direction our $ has gone of late.

[marki]

Don't waste your money on agricultural telescopes, dobs are rubbish.

Mark

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by marki

Don't waste your money on agricultural telescopes, dobs are rubbish.

Mark

As is your statement

It all depends what you want to use the Dob for?
We all at times have a barrow to push.

[Starkler (Geoff)]

Irony.

[marki]

Originally Posted by astroron

As is your statement

It all depends what you want to use the Dob for?
We all at times have a barrow to push.

If he gets a goto EQ mount of reasonable quality he will be able to mount many different types of scopes as well as having the option of AP latter on if he so chooses. It doesn't take most people long to tire of looking at everything in greyscale.

Mark

[AstroJunk (Jonathan)]

Originally Posted by marki

It is better to sit quiet and let someone think you a fool then to open your mouth and confirm it.

More Irony.

Dob owners unite!

[GH1967]

Can you elaborate on what you mean in the the bolded part below?

Most advice I am getting here and with astronomers I have met seems to point me towards dobsonians.

Astrophotgraphy will probably never be on my radar.

Originally Posted by marki

If he gets a goto EQ mount of reasonable quality he will be able to mount many different types of scopes as well as having the option of AP latter on if he so chooses. It doesn't take most people long to tire of looking at everything in greyscale.

Mark