Thats a complete cynical misreperesentation of what Bintel do. These scopes often come out of the crate way out of whack. Bintel have very experienced guy on staff to collimate and check each instrument and make what ever adjustments and minor mods to make sure the intrsument functions properly."
What is the point of collimating a scope to perfection if your going to sell it to someone who will never do it again anyway? Or who will have to drag it back in and pay up $$$ for a simple task they should have learnt to perform themselves. If someone buys a reflector and doesn't read the directions, doesn't bother to learn how to collimate, they deserve poor views IMO. With the money they save buying from Andrews' they could afford a lazer collimation tool. It's not exactly rocket science.
What is the point of collimating a scope to perfection if your going to sell it to someone who will never do it again anyway? Or who will have to drag it back in and pay up $$$ for a simple task they should have learnt to perform themselves. .... With the money they save buying from Andrews' they could afford a lazer collimation tool. It's not exactly rocket science.
Who the heck said they not going to learn to collimate?? Or be willing to pay to have it done for them??
Are you implying that only people who pay more fora scope will learn to collimate it?
I agree with Mark - very "silly" comment indeed!
(pardon my poetic license for misquoting you Mark)
And yes at the price of laser (spelt with an 's' you may note) collimators at Andrews, 'they' probably will buy one too.
With the money they save buying from Andrews' they could afford a lazer collimation tool. It's not exactly rocket science.
For someone that doesn't know how to properly collimate a newtonian reflector, the laser collimator of itself, is a completely useless device, so they may as well save that money also. Reading the directions wont help a lot either because you don't learn how to properly collimate a fast newtonian over the phone, or reading books
The sad thing is everyone wants to phone Bintel and get all the right technical advice for free and then buy the equipment from Lee Andrews because it is cheaper. Notwithstanding that Lee Andrews is unable to provide the same level of technical advise and expertise, as is available from Bintel.
It's the same scenario as buying your new surround sound system from Harvey Lee Retail. You bought it there because you saved $50 over the price available from Len Wallis Audio. When you can't hook it up and have wires everywhere and no one at Harvey Lee (where you bought it) can tell you how to hook it up, you then phone Len Wallis audio and ask how to hook it up and expect that service for free. I am just wondering how places like Len Wallis Audio and Bintel are supposed to survive when all they sell is "free advise", because of all the tight arses in the world. We are then left with an oversupply of retailers who know nothing about the products which they sell and merely offer a service redistributing cardboard boxes.
The sad thing is everyone wants to phone Bintel and get all the right technical advice for free and then buy the equipment from Lee Andrews because it is cheaper. Notwithstanding that Lee Andrews is unable to provide the same level of technical advise and expertise, as is available from Bintel.
Cheers,
John B
I find your statement rather bazaar.... why would you do that? and if it that
comes from Bintel, then I would say it's sour grapes. Certainly you could
never sudstantiate that statement, I know I've had dealing with Bintel from
almost the start of my hobby (mind you there was a break with dealing with
them for a couple of years due to a particular old lady at Bintel, maybe why
they loose customers and not only price). I have to ask my mate who worked
for several years with Len Wallis Audio, never heard him meantion that
scenario, but he will be up here this weekend so I'll ask him.
Why I would do it is because it's a statement of fact. I have no association with Bintel in any way. I buy very little from them as I don't buy much gear these days; and what I do buy they don't sell. It would be over three years since I purchased something at Bintel. Nor do I phone them for advice because I have no need for that either. I do occasionally phone Don Whiteman for a chat or call in and see Don and Michael. I respect the service they provide to the astronomy community and more importantly the time they spend offering assistance to beginners, who need the advice. Whilst I appreciate your comments regarding said woman (who I avoid any form of communication with), you will not find two more helpfull people amongst the astronomy community than two of the other Bintel employees, namely Don Whiteman and Michael Chaytor. They are both very experienced astronomers and qualified telescope technicians, both having trained with the large US telescope manufacturers. Lee Andrews on the other hand has qualifications in radio communication, is a fairly inactive astronomer and is fairly inexperienced with a lot of the technical aspects of observing equipment, although to the uninformed he sounds like he knows what he is talking about. To the informed it's obvious where his limitations lie.
In regard to the Hi Fi analogy it's a known fact amongst the high end retailers of not just Hi Fi gear but a lot of other products as well, that a large number of consumers phone the high end store for advice and source the product from the bulk retailer. Ask your mate at Len Wallis, ask Steve Neill at Eastwood Hi Fi, ask whoever you like. Several high end Hi Fi stores have closed their doors in recent years for this very reason.
Well....I have ordered the 8" with Crayford focuser from Bintel....Michael was helpful, explanatory, and from all I can see so far, I have not gone wrong buying the 8" for $429. Maybe a little more than others in price....but this could also be a start of a great thing so for the dollars extra I am happy to also consider I may be able to purchase again and also seek advice from them in the future. I am new to this hobby for having decent gear....to-date been using a 3" refractor. Some good advice / opinion stated earlier in this thread...useful for folk like me. BT202 is on order, should arrive in about two to three weeks.....quite happy.
Statement of balony if you ask me, you got any evidence to support your
statement? Sure there are people of like Don and Michael who have amassed
techical knowledge and maybe very approachable, but so is Lee, the boys
at Star Optics, and I've always found Ron at Sirius to be very approachable.
It all very well to state as fact with no way of sudstantiate it is more
stretching the truth than any merit in it. So we'll agree to disagree so this
doesn't turn into some slanging match.
Sure I will ask him, actually I just copied paste your message about it in an
email to him. You may very well be right, but I have never heard him mention
lossing money or offering out technical info at a loss.
regards
Rob
Quote:
Originally Posted by ausastronomer
Rob,
Why I would do it is because it's a statement of fact. I have no association with Bintel in any way. I buy very little from them as I don't buy much gear these days; and what I do buy they don't sell. It would be over three years since I purchased something at Bintel. Nor do I phone them for advice because I have no need for that either. I do occasionally phone Don Whiteman for a chat or call in and see Don and Michael. I respect the service they provide to the astronomy community and more importantly the time they spend offering assistance to beginners, who need the advice. Whilst I appreciate your comments regarding said woman (who I avoid any form of communication with), you will not find two more helpfull people amongst the astronomy community than two of the other Bintel employees, namely Don Whiteman and Michael Chaytor. They are both very experienced astronomers and qualified telescope technicians, both having trained with the large US telescope manufacturers. Lee Andrews on the other hand has qualifications in radio communication, is a fairly inactive astronomer and is fairly inexperienced with a lot of the technical aspects of observing equipment, although to the uninformed he sounds like he knows what he is talking about. To the informed it's obvious where his limitations lie.
In regard to the Hi Fi analogy it's a known fact amongst the high end retailers of not just Hi Fi gear but a lot of other products as well, that a large number of consumers phone the high end store for advice and source the product from the bulk retailer. Ask your mate at Len Wallis, ask Steve Neill at Eastwood Hi Fi, ask whoever you like. Several high end Hi Fi stores have closed their doors in recent years for this very reason.
Having worked in the shop at Astro Optical years ago, and years in cottage industry optics, I can vouch for Austronomers scenario. Its incredible the number of people who will take your time to get a lengthy lesson in optics knowing full well they are just gaining confidence to go and buy a cheaper product somewhere else. Sometimes its just to save $50.
Sure I wouldn't want to deny your experience. But to imply people buying
from Lee are ringing Bintel for technical assistance then heading back
to Lee just doesn't add up. And I feel a slight on Lee's reputation to imply
so.
btw, if I had a choice between something massed produced and one
of your works of art, at $50 difference... it's a certain which way I'd
be going.
CS regards the $50 difference I wasn't referring to my optics , but my experience at Astro Optical.
All this fuss about 10" Dob prices is a little perplexing.
As far as I can tell there is only $100 price differnce between the only comparable models ( Super Deluxe 10" ) between the shops and Bintel are doing a great job offering a checked and collimated scope for just $100 more.
Amateurs today who are used to these cheap mass produced Dobs don't know how lucky they are. In 1987, I designed the first commercial production Dobsonian available in Australia, using all Astro Optical manuafctured parts ( see attached pic) . The 10" F6 had a full thickness mirror, metal tube , and a heavy particle board veneered Dob mount. The focussers were nowhere near as good as modern Crayfords. ( I believe Tornado33 still uses one of these AOS tubes on a Samson mount.)
They cost $1600 with one eyepiece and the tube took 2 people to lift safely and the mount was very heavy. In todays money thats probably $3000 or more ! Sure the optics and tube were superb but you didn't have a choice if you wanted something more budget. ( At the time a 4" F10 Vixen Newt on Super Polaris mount was $795 and a 6" F5 Newt on SP mount was $1350 ! ) Thats all in 1987 dollars !
These 10" Dobs still sold like hot cakes. From memory about 100 or so in 1987 which was double the sales of the traditional EQ mount and a saving of $600 or so over an equatorial. People were attracted by the simplicity of the Dob mount though many had not even heard of or seen one.
In the light of what was available 20 years ago , the current finger pointing over whether a $300 or $500 10" Dob is or isn't a `rip-off ' is just plain comical to me .
That hasn't always been the case. Historically going back to the 1970's, 80's and up to the mid 90's, "SOME" Tasco products were very good indeed. Quite a few of their refractors, binoculars and riflescopes were made by Towa Optical in Japan and Vixen Optical in Japan. The products from those manufacturers are first rate. Of course they also distributed products from other manufacturers during those years which were not first rate and ultimately led to TASCO earning a sometimes less than favourable reputation amongst consumers. If you know what you're looking for, you can actually find a TASCO bargain on the 2nd hand market and get a very good product.
Cheers,
John B
After the stick I've been giving John in another thread I thought I'd wholeheartedly support some of his comments I've just noted here....!
Back in 1970 (that's almost 40 years ago!) an acquaintence brough a 4.5" Tasco newt on EQ around for me to collimate: I suppose he'd heard that I was the only person he knew at all who had some experience with these things.....
He left it with me and never came back, and being the magpie I am I've carted it around (sometimes very unceremoniously) through the intervening decades.
And want to know what? It's dusty and dirty (plastic shopping bags as dust covers that have long disintergrated etc) and full of spider webs, but when I dragged it out of my junk shed the other day and pushed away the cobwebs there, shining still with no visible deterioration on it, was the primary at the end of the tube! The secondary looks almost as well-preserved. I'll clean it up and check it out someday soon, but I do remember that when I collimated it all those decades ago, its performance, even with the .965 Huygens (and about his era in optical advancement) was actually quite staisfying indeed! And I had a reasonable scope at the time (home made from an Astro-optical supplied 8" primary) to do some basic quantifying from.
I have a cheap 8" dob from Andrews and I have had people who make mirrors have a look at mine and they have said to me, "for $300 bux you have a great little mirror there" these things may be mass produced, but they are also aimed at novice astronomers. Colimation isn't hard to learn and if people don't want to learn how to do it they are only going to be interested in this hobby for a very short time. When I first started looking into buying a telescope (for my son, who has no interest in astronomy any more) I asked a lot of questions and done a fair amount of research to find what scope would suit best. Nearly everyone I have talked to involved with Astromomy also researched a fair bit at first. When I phoned Lee he informed me that the scope would need collimating and that I would need to learn how to do it if I wanted to get the best out of the scope. Bintel told me that they checked their scopes and that I would also have to learn how to collimate the scope. Not much difference in info there! To be honest though I bought from Andrews because it was within my budget at that time and the price of the same scope at Bintel was outside said budget. I have bought various things from both companies and have found both fantastic to deal with. All in all anything that gets people into the hobby with a scope that will blow them away (and these will) is always a good thing.
Hear, hear Gazz, I heartily agree with your sentiments: but you still haven't told me what you think about Uranus - from the "Pluto demotion thread....?
All this fuss about 10" Dob prices is a little perplexing.
As far as I can tell there is only $100 price differnce between the only comparable models ( Super Deluxe 10" ) between the shops and Bintel are doing a great job offering a checked and collimated scope for just $100 more.
Maybe ok if your picking it up from the shop. But once freighted
what's the point, more than likely you will probably have to do it
again. I learnt how to collimate by internet how to's, yahoo
groups...etc...etc... it really isn't that hard, it just might take
a little practice... more for some.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satchmo
In the light of what was available 20 years ago , the current finger pointing over whether a $300 or $500 10" Dob is or isn't a `rip-off ' is just plain comical to me .
You could say the same about mobile phones... and many other
products. I think it is ok to finger point in this, for some people
$100 is a lot of money or the difference in blowing their budget.
You very well may of paid a lot more $20 years ago. But your
comparing the world today with a world 20 years ago and we're
talking about a scope from the same manufacturer.
Being a beginner at Astronomy and having this year purchased from multiple suppliers, both low and high cost items, I think that my opinion is going to be mainstream.
If you want to see what is available for your budget, you go to the shops that are the industry benchmark and then compare them with what else is available. (you would be crazy if you didn't shop around)
As far as bleeding someone for knowledge, I don't/didn't have to.
The good members at IIS offer all their experiences and knowledge for free and without favour.
Somewhere between 5 to 10+ years ago, I would have agreed with John but now days there is just so much information available freely that you can access in your own time on the net, you don't need to call anyone on the phone for the same.
As for my purchases, I purchased the low priced item where I could get it the cheapest where quality was not an issue.
As for the high priced item, my criteria was:-
I wanted to have access to the store
To be able to pickup the item myself
Put a face to the name (a bit old school)
Who I chose in the end was mainly from word of mouth from other purchasers offering their experiences.
I also very much believe that spending the extra bucks for an experienced person to ensure that I get the most from the scope from day one is value adding and will help me get what I want out of this hobby from the start
This also should keep me in the hobby and hopefully for the store bring me back as a return customer.
That's great for you as I mentioned earlier the service is ok if you pick up
from the store get a chance to chat to an expert. But for me @ 750kms
from the nearest Bintel store. I aint going to be driving to Sydney just
to meet someone and learn something I can learn here, that's old school
too and I'm not having a go at you. But I guess it just the way with rural
folk, we learn how to fix things because we usually have to. When I moved
back to the bush I knew nothing about fixing cars, I've now become my
own machanic (Choice!!! it's an expence I can do without).
Glad to hear you are enjoying your scope and hobby.
Just my 2c.
I wouldn't ring one company for advice and purchase off another.
That's why I joined IIS. I don't use the companies for information.
I would however shop around for the best price on an item
that I've done the research on myself.
Buying out of 'loyalty' all the time would mean I had an unlimited budget (which I don't). Extra $ on one item could mean not being able to buy another item, or not purchasing it at all.
Having said that, quite often I have refused to purchase items off cheaper
companies purely because of their bad service and the problems that usually
follow. (Not talking Astro items here)
With regards to Collimation: I just assumed it was a way of life with Dobs and taught myself. And I find "Andy's Shotglass" tutorials confusing.
It only takes two minutes to collimate my 12" dob and I don't even think about it anymore. (Bob's Knobs + laser collimator = )
)
