Is spelling old fashioned?

[marki]

Originally Posted by renormalised

This is my philosophy...if you're going to be teaching a subject, then you should be proficient and have experience in that subject. So, if you're going to teach science, for example, then you should be a physicist, chemist, biologist, geologist etc etc. How can you teach a subject when the only knowledge and experience you've got consists of 3 or 4 semesters of study at Uni. You can't...you barely know enough to cover the subject yourself let alone be able to pass what knowledge you have onto others!!!. You should, at least, have a degree in the field you want to teach, preferably post graduate qualifications and some experience in your field if possible. But, at the very least, a degree. Not a BEd with a smattering of study in your field of choice. That's a complete and utter waste of time. Teachers should have a BSc or BA or BBus or LLB etc, then do a course of about a year or so long to get the teaching qualifications...like a diploma or post grad BEd. That way, we might actually get teachers that know their subjects.

Carl that is exactly what happens. I have never met a science teacher with a BEd alone. All I have met have at the very least a BSc. Most have honours, some have masters and a few have Phd's (in their specialist areas not education). All my science work mates have experience in their relative fields and even my boss (the physics guru) used to teach ballistics to the British and Saudi armed forces. For every raw science graduate moving into education there there would be at least 4 older seasoned professionals. Our last new recruit has a Phd in marine biology and has spent the last 15 years doing research in her field. She is a spritley 40 years young.

Mark

[marki]

Originally Posted by matt

Not a problem. Sounds good to me. Let's do the same in all professions.

A topic for another thread, perhaps?

But while we're discussing spelling and those responsible for teaching of said topic...ie teachers....let's stick to discussing them for now, eh?

And let's make this about a set of established, commonly accepted standards... not "my standards".

Cheers.

Matt, in WA we have a proffessional teachers association which governs the standards for teachers (West Australian College of Teaching). This body has power under law to dictate and direct teacher QAQC. There are very stict protocals for both qualification and on going renewal. Not sure what the other states have done.

Mark

[matt]

Originally Posted by marki

Matt, in WA we have a proffessional teachers association which governs the standards for teachers (West Australian College of Teaching). This body has power under law to dictate and direct teacher QAQC. There are very stict protocals for both qualification and on going renewal. Not sure what the other states have done.

Mark

Hi Mark. I'd say it'd be similar in all States.

And I reckon it's in this direction we need to be looking.

For starters, I'm not comfortable with this 'Police policing the Police' approach when it comes to setting standards and qualifications for teachers.

Anyway...I'm off to have a beer and relax a bit for a Saturday night

[renormalised (Carl)]

I have never met a science teacher with a BEd alone.

I have. I've met quite a few and none of them could teach it effectively or with any authority. The ones that could teach science well did have science degrees, but even quite a few of them taught from books that were sub standard. Some of the textbooks I've seen for science in schools have a lot left to be desired. But, unfortunately, that's what the curriculum sets down as the books to be used.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by kinetic

Here is an anecdote that might give you some food for thought.
Maybe not.....might get lost in the noise...

When my daughter was in pre-school she started to develop the
ability to write her own name.
Apparently that is one of the 'milestones' of completing 'Kindy'
Spell and write your own name and tie your shoelaces.

Well it seemed to come to her in just a few days....one day
she couldn't write it, next day she could do it straight off the bat.

But it was all backwards!. Completely and perfectly formed letters,
including a capital at the start, but backwards!
This freaked mum and dad out a bit. We thought we had a child
from the Exorcist movie

So we carefully and quietly told her how to write it forwards.
She then did it perfectly forwards, straight off. She could, back then,
actually write it just as clearly with both hands as well.

For a few weeks this went to and fro, from writing it forwards one
day, to writing it backwards another (by accident).

A teacher then told us that this is very common in pre-schoolers.

From my way of thinking this implies to me that we put blinkers
on kids at this crucial stage and disable or lock out a huge potential
of them perceiving their world. Just imagine what else a kid could
possibly do if this ability was nurtured instead of cut off.

Steve

Cryptographer in the making

Or an expert linguist

Or a top line scientist (anyone who can write backwards can understand the mathematical scrawl I've seen I've seen in textbooks)

[DJDD]

I suspect a few of those who have replied have children and are concerned about your children's education.

so, after reading and responding to this thread lamenting the state of our education system, how many of you will be writing to your federal or state members of parliament demanding some action? whether it be to increase teacher's salary, entry requirements, improve the teaching of spelling/grammar, etc.

or perhaps consider changing careers to teaching so that you can help improve the quality of education in our country...

[marki]

Originally Posted by matt

Hi Mark. I'd say it'd be similar in all States.

And I reckon it's in this direction we need to be looking.

For starters, I'm not comfortable with this 'Police policing the Police' approach when it comes to setting standards and qualifications for teachers.

Matt it is made of a board of which only 9 of the 20 places can be filled by elected teachers. There is quite a wide representation in the mix. Perhaps we should also look at other bodies, e.g. lawyers policing lawyers and doctors policing doctors. In reality it is those in the profession that are best qualified to make such judgments.

Mark

[marki]

Originally Posted by renormalised

I have. I've met quite a few and none of them could teach it effectively or with any authority. The ones that could teach science well did have science degrees, but even quite a few of them taught from books that were sub standard. Some of the textbooks I've seen for science in schools have a lot left to be desired. But, unfortunately, that's what the curriculum sets down as the books to be used.

Carl I don't rely on textbooks, they are a resource not the course. I spend hours writing stuff for my kids and only use the text for backup. The current year 12 chem text in WA is excellent but the year 11 text is utter crap. I can see myself writing my own shortly, I am nearly there in any case. The BEd might be a QLD thing as I cannot remember meeting a science teacher who did not at least have a BSc in the past 15 years. I know some states will not allow you teach unless you have a BEd so I guess they reap the rewards of having under qualified folk teaching specialist subjects. In any case a BEd should require completion of a major in whatever the teacher is going to specialise in and I believe that to be the case. Over here even the arts folks tend to have a degree in their specialist area. Most do a grad Dip Ed before moving into teaching.

Mark

[ngcles]

Hi All,

Seems though the discussion has leaned toward teaching standards I'll relate an incident that happened in early 2006 to my one and only daughter then attending the local high school.

It is also related in this 2008 thread here:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ighlight=Sedna

where science educational standards issues are discussed. There is also an interesting story there from David (astraltraveller) that bears reading, but here is my one:

My daughter did astronomy as part of her "comprehensive" education two years ago at a large public high school in southern Sydney in Yr 10 2006.

Of course, she didn't let Dad know she was doing astronomy in science, she didn't want me looking over her shoulder at what she was doing. But ...

One day near the end of the section (April or May I think) she came home and asked:

"Dad, Sedna isn't a planet, is it?" "No it isn't" I replied ... "Why do you ask?" (privately I was very proud that she knew that despite her "apparent" disinterest in astronomy).

"Well, we were taught today that it was a planet and I asked the teacher whether she was sure and the teacher said she was".

"Hmmm ... well the teacher is wrong I'm sorry."

"Yep I told her that it was wrong and that she ought to check it out, and then the teacher said it would be in the exam at the end of the week and that if I answer that Sedna is not a planet, I will be marked incorrect and loose the marks. What should I do?"

At this point I should point out that I have a reserved, well-mannered and respectful daughter who did not and would not have said any of this in a hostile manner. She was (and still is in her 1st year at Uni now) a top student -- straight As.

Well that wasn't hard.

I told her to go into the exam and give the correct answer and if anything comes of it, I would deal with it. I also armed her with print-outs of several pages from the IAU website on the status of Sedna definitively confirming its KBO/non-planet status by the only body that has authority to make pronouncements on the subject.

She did the exam. She took Dad's advice. She was marked wrong.

After the exam, she (privately) took the point up with the teacher and produced the IAU documents that conclusively proved the point in her favour.

The teachers response was (can you guess??):

(a) Oh yes, I see you are right. I'll fix it right away. Thanks for putting me straight.

(b) The curriculum documents clearly instruct that Sedna is the 10th planet in the solar-system. It is the only answer I can accept. What the IAU says is irrelevant.

Yep you guessed it, b.

Luckily parent-teacher night was the next week. It was an interesting conversation we touched firstly on the issue of the status of Sedna. The teacher asked "Well what makes you an authority on the subject?" -- so I told her.

Then, we discussed the absolute authority of the IAU on the issue of nomenclature (where she expressed considerable doubt about whether that could possibly be correct given the content of the curriculum documents). I then showed her again the print-out of the IAU web page that explicity states that Sedna is not a planet.

Following this, we had a bit of a "fireside chat" over the role of the teacher, the importance of teaching factually correct material and lastly upon scientific method.

The marks were restored.

Was the correct material ever taught? Who knows. I'll bet all my daughter's classmates are still under the impression Sedna is a planet.

A sad but true story.


Best,

Les D

[marki]

That is a very silly teacher indeed Les. It would not happen in my classroom. I encourage my kids to fight for every mark (1/2 marks included). It kind of goes like this. I write the test, they sit the test, I mark the test, they get it back. I go through the answers then we fight for fifty minutes over who got it right . I love this part of the process as it shows the kids have a passion for the subject and have done their homework. If they can show me to be wrong (and they do) I award bonus points for the question. As for sylabus statements that are factually incorrect, they will be picked up and the relevent body notified to change it. You cannot teach a subject at the upper levels if you don't know your stuff and I have seen changes made to sylabus statements on a number of occassions as a result of complaints by teachers.

Mark

[bojan]

Silly teacher, yes..
But, imagine one day someone somewhere high in educational authority hierarchy decides the ID is a valid theory, that it deserves the chance and then, this monstrosity sneaks into the system.
Teachers like that one (and I bet many others) would blindly (more or less) follow curriculum documents (or else... they would be out of job).
It would require much more than just a chat by the fireplace to restore marks (like that court process in the States.. And I am pretty sure this issue is not over yet).
We all know how unpredictable the legal processes may be sometimes. And judges will not base their decisions on scientific truth.. the decision may be based on scientifically totally irrelevant legal details.

[Fossil (Jonathan)]

For what it's worth, I believe there is far too much importance placed on qualifications and too little placed on experience. I, for one, would much rather listen to somebody who knows what they are talking about rather than somebody who is 'qualified'.
There are countless examples where 'experts' have decided what course of action should be taken, with no regard given to the opinions of people who knew what they were talking about. The Canberra bushfire disaster is a perfect example. The people in charge were all experts, qualified in bush fires and fire management, and 'managed' one of the worst disasters to ever hit Canberra. Meanwhile, there were all the people who knew what they were doing, and knew what they were talking about, but were not qualified, so were not considered experts and were subsequently ignored. The fact that some of these people had lived on the land and been members of the local bush fire brigades for most of their lives was irrelevant. One of these people suggested that a fire break should be established around a rural township that was under threat, but was over-ruled by the experts who said it wasn't necessary. Out of frustration he took his crew and established the firebreaks that he had suggested, for which he was roundly criticised for disobeying the experts. These firebreaks were the only thing that saved his township.
I believe the pendulum needs to swing back a little bit, away from qualifications and towards common sense and experience.
I am not suggesting that qualifications are not necessary, just that qualifications can be gained from places other than a book.

[OneOfOne (Trevor)]

Originally Posted by Fossil

For what it's worth, I believe there is far too much importance placed on qualifications and too little placed on experience....
[snip]

I couldn't agree more on this point either. My formal qualifications are a certificate of technology in electronics I finished in 1979. I was working at one stage with an electronics engineer about 15 years my senior who had given me the task of testing a circuit he had designed. After a lot of testing I couldn't get it to work and explained my theory of why it wasn't working. His explanation was that he had calculated all of the poles of the filter, bandwidth etc and that it would work. Eventually, I made my modification and it worked. He couldn't understand why it needed to be changed, but could see it would only work with my modification (I guess he thought "what would a 20 year old techo know").

I always say "an education doen't make you right, hopefully just more likely". Over the years I have worked with a number of people with enough letters after their name they need an appendix on their business card. Most have been very clever people, but some have been unable to see the possibility of them being wrong. An education prepares you and your mind for a lifetime of experiences, and in the end it is your experiences that count the most.

[matt]

Originally Posted by Fossil

For what it's worth, I believe there is far too much importance placed on qualifications and too little placed on experience. I, for one, would much rather listen to somebody who knows what they are talking about rather than somebody who is 'qualified'.
There are countless examples where 'experts' have decided what course of action should be taken, with no regard given to the opinions of people who knew what they were talking about. The Canberra bushfire disaster is a perfect example. The people in charge were all experts, qualified in bush fires and fire management, and 'managed' one of the worst disasters to ever hit Canberra. Meanwhile, there were all the people who knew what they were doing, and knew what they were talking about, but were not qualified, so were not considered experts and were subsequently ignored. The fact that some of these people had lived on the land and been members of the local bush fire brigades for most of their lives was irrelevant. One of these people suggested that a fire break should be established around a rural township that was under threat, but was over-ruled by the experts who said it wasn't necessary. Out of frustration he took his crew and established the firebreaks that he had suggested, for which he was roundly criticised for disobeying the experts. These firebreaks were the only thing that saved his township.
I believe the pendulum needs to swing back a little bit, away from qualifications and towards common sense and experience.
I am not suggesting that qualifications are not necessary, just that qualifications can be gained from places other than a book.

Hi...and I agree. Although I do strongly believe formal qualifications are essential in the teaching profession.

It's great to have all that terrific life experience and knowledge, but it counts for little if you don't know how to impart it in a structured and cohesive way.

I'm not a teacher, but I'm certain there's a lot to know about how to actually 'teach'. That's the value, to me anyway, of the years techers spend at school and Uni learning their 'craft'.

[DJDD]

I can understand a knowledgeable parent's frustration with teachers that just follow the proscribed texts/answers, however, would it not be a good idea to raise it with the principal? Or send letters to the Education dept for your state? Maybe a letter to the minister for your region?

perhaps that is the only way to get action.

When errors are found then either the textbook needs to be changed (probably one or two years down the track) or an addendum provided by way of simple print outs, even if it is only for the next year's class...

getting accurate information to schools and classrooms cannot be that hard in the age of information technology.


There are several thousand members on IIS- maybe get together and make a petition...

or perhaps parents do kick up a stink and the media just does not report it...?

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by marki

Carl I don't rely on textbooks, they are a resource not the course. I spend hours writing stuff for my kids and only use the text for backup. The current year 12 chem text in WA is excellent but the year 11 text is utter crap. I can see myself writing my own shortly, I am nearly there in any case. The BEd might be a QLD thing as I cannot remember meeting a science teacher who did not at least have a BSc in the past 15 years. I know some states will not allow you teach unless you have a BEd so I guess they reap the rewards of having under qualified folk teaching specialist subjects. In any case a BEd should require completion of a major in whatever the teacher is going to specialise in and I believe that to be the case. Over here even the arts folks tend to have a degree in their specialist area. Most do a grad Dip Ed before moving into teaching.

Mark

Well, that makes you a good teacher in my books. Quite frankly, there are a great many textbooks that have a lot left to be desired. I've seen some pretty woeful textbooks in my time as well. It's a wonder they even got through the editing process at the publishers. Quite a few of the science teachers I know just went through uni with a straight BEd where they majored in a science subject (that's 3-4 semesters worth of science subjects), but that's not near enough to be able to competently teach science. Like we've discussed, you should have a degree in the field you want to teach. After that, then do your teaching qualifications. Then you should be paid well as a teacher, much more than what you get paid now. That way, they'll get specialist teachers for those subjects.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

What's the use? Not too sound defeatist, but your local MP doesn't give a squat about you. All they care about is getting Ten years as a MP so they quality for a nice juicy pension.

The educational system in at least 2 states (NSW & QLD) has went downhill over the past 20 odd years. One can only notice this by looking at todays youth - who have horrid spelling, grammar, and cannot count for the love of life. These are the basics. If they cannot get the basics right, God help them when it comes to more complex educational subjects.

You can have all of the educational degrees you like, and still be a useless teacher. They are not the only mark of ability. I compare this to the many that I see with computer science degrees, who couldn't troubleshoot a problem if their lives depended on it. Hell, they don't even seem to teach networking skills as part of the basic computer science degree!

My advice to teachers is to:

1) remove DVDs/Videos when it comes to English subjects. Make the kids actually read and comprehend the literature

2) remove calculators. Make them use slide rules, make them think and use their brains for maths.

3) Ban mobile phones from school premises. Sorry, but there's no need for a kid to have such a device. For all those that would disagree with me - if they're so critical, how the hell did I, and many others of my generation and older, survive without one? mmm? Care to answer that one?

4) Ban the Internet @ school. Let them research using books. Actual books. Too many kids are copying/pasting whole paragraphs from the Internet and becoming adept at being parrots. They do not comprehend what they are studying, they simply parrot phrases. This is again, a major problem with the modern degree imho, and probably half the reason why most modern teachers are failures imho.

I'm more interested in fixing the problems than twiddling my thumbs. Unfortunately, politicians are thumb twiddlers. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Dave

Originally Posted by DJDD

I suspect a few of those who have replied have children and are concerned about your children's education.

so, after reading and responding to this thread lamenting the state of our education system, how many of you will be writing to your federal or state members of parliament demanding some action? whether it be to increase teacher's salary, entry requirements, improve the teaching of spelling/grammar, etc.

or perhaps consider changing careers to teaching so that you can help improve the quality of education in our country...

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Just to add to my views on politicians, there's this little gem of a joke:

Two Crocodiles were sitting at the side of the swamp near the lake.

The smaller one turned to the bigger one and said, "I can't understand how you can be so much bigger than me. We're the same age; we were the same size as kids. I just don't get it."

"Well," said the big Croc, "what have you been eating?" "Politicians, same as you," replied the small Croc.

"Hmm. Well, where do you catch them?" "Down the other side of the swamp near the parking lot by the Capitol."

"Same here. Hmm. How do you catch them?" "Well, I crawl up under one of their Lexus cars and wait for one to unlock the car door, then I jump out, grab them by the leg, shake the $hit out of them and eat 'em!"

"Ah!" says the big Crocodile, "I think I see your problem. You're not
getting any real nourishment. See, by the time you finish shaking the $hit out of a Politician, there's nothing left but an a$$hole and a briefcase.

Dave

[renormalised (Carl)]

Classic

[renormalised (Carl)]

What's the use? Not too sound defeatist, but your local MP doesn't give a squat about you. All they care about is getting Ten years as a MP so they quality for a nice juicy pension.

Well, that sums up my local federal member...Peter Lindsay. Hopeless moron. Claims everything that's not his ideas as being his. Then when something good does appear that the other mob has come up with, he's dead set against it. Nothing more than a political opportunist. I've got quite a few stories about him, apart from the political ones.