nuclear energy!!! whats it worth to us? - Page 8

GrampianStars (Rob) · #**141** 14-06-2006, 09:11 PM

MARALINGA
Plutonium and uranium fallout from 15 nuclear tests conducted
by the British government between 1961 and 1963 contaminated Maralinga SA. Twisted Evil

Seven atomic bombs were exploded at Maralinga;
perhaps 25% to 30% of the plutonium in those devices would have been fissioned.
The remainder would have been spread around the ground zeroes, or carried into the air to be deposited later as fallout.
Many development trials were also conducted at three sites within Maralinga — Taranaki, TM, and Wewak.
Those at the two latter sites resulted in plutonium spread over relatively small areas but a series of trials at Taranaki, code named Vixen B, were much more damaging.

There were 15 Vixen B trials;
all conducted in the period from 1961 to 1963.
In twelve of the tests, both plutonium and uranium were in the radioactive mix; the other three contained only uranium. In each trial, a nuclear device was placed on a large steel structure known as a featherbed, erected on a concrete firing pad.
The device was detonated in a manner that prevented a nuclear explosion. The heat of the explosion melted the plutonium and uranium and shot radioactive debris up to 1,000 meters into the air, where it was caught by the wind and spread far and wide.

Maralinga is not suitable for permanent occupation;
and 450 km2 is encircled by boundary markers to remind Australians that this is so.

The boundary markers might have a life of 50 years, but half of the plutonium will still be there in 24,000 years.
simply buried in shallow pits instead of disposal of waste in a deep geological rift / chamber.

Whoever accepts responsibility for the site should recognize that they will have to rely for several thousand years on assurances from a government
yeah right Evil or Very Mad

wraithe · #**142** 14-06-2006, 09:13 PM

statement from the world nuclear association....
To reconcile global human need and environmental preservation, our world needs nuclear power.
“There is no sensible alternative to nuclear power if we are to sustain civilization.”
- James Lovelock, preeminent world leader in the development of environmental consciousness

http://www.world-nuclear.org/

good propaganda hey...
no sensible alternative...mmm...makes you wonder what drugs this guy is on....

wraithe · #**143** 14-06-2006, 09:22 PM

France, 2001

In July 2001, police seized several grams of highly enriched uranium and arrested three suspects in Paris, France. According to preliminary reports, the enrichment level was about 80 percent, but results of laboratory analysis have not yet been reported to the IAEA. One of the suspects had recently completed a prison sentence for fraud charges, and the other two reportedly were citizens of Cameroon. According to one press account, French police found the material encased in a glass bulb that was stored in a lead cylinder.

wraithe · #**144** 14-06-2006, 09:27 PM

plenty more thefts of nuclear fuel...

Tengen, Germany, 1994

In May 1994, German police discovered a lead container containing 0.006 kilograms of highly concentrated plutonium-239 in the home of a German citizen. The material found in the container was a mixture of many components, including aluminum, silicon, mercury, zirconium, broken glass, and brush bristles as well as the plutonium. The presence of mercury in the mixture suggests that the material may have been used as part of a red mercury scam. 5 In November 1995, the German national was sentenced to 2-1/2 years in prison for violating arms control laws. The sentence was added onto a 3-year term he was already serving time for counterfeiting.
Landshut, Germany, 1994

In June 1994, less than 0.001 kilogram of highly enriched uranium was recovered in Landshut, Germany, a city near Munich. This material, along with 120 low enriched uranium fuel pellets, was found as a result of a police undercover operation. The material was seized in an undercover police operation. Three individuals apprehended were citizens of the Slovak Republic and one was a resident of Germany. A German court sentenced several of the individuals to probationary terms but one of the group’s leaders was sentenced to 2 years in prison.
Munich, Germany, 1994

In 1994, undercover German police acting as prospective buyers intercepted approximately 0.4 kilograms of plutonium at the Munich Airport. It is believed that the material originated in Russia’s Institute of Physics and Power Engineering. The institute, which is operated by Russia’s Ministry of Atomic Energy, is involved in the research and development of nuclear power reactors and possesses several tons of weapons-usable material. The material was in a suitcase that had arrived on a flight from Moscow. The individuals involved in the smuggling case were from Colombia and Spain. A German court sentenced the Colombian national to almost 5 years in prison and the Spanish nationals received prison sentences of between 3 and 4 years. All of the individuals were expelled from Germany after serving half of their sentences. By February 1996, Russian authorities had arrested several Russian accomplices, including a key figure involved in the theft of the material from the institute.
Prague, Czech Republic, 1994

In December 1994, police in Prague, Czech Republic, seized approximately 2.7 kilograms of highly enriched uranium. The material is believed to have been stolen from the Russian Institute of Physics and Power Engineering. The individuals involved included a Tajikistan national, a former Russian nuclear institute worker, and at least one Czech national. The material was brought into the Czech Republic on a train and then hidden for about 6 months while the individuals involved tried to sell it. They were arrested after Czech authorities received an anonymous tip and a Czech judge gave several members of the group prison sentences ranging from about 18 months to 8 years. Two related incidents were reported in June 1995 and involved the seizure of highly enriched uranium in the Czech Republic. According to available information, the composition of the material and its location were linked to the 1994 Prague and Landshut incidents. In both instances, the small quantities of material involved indicated that it was a sample that could be used to attract a potential buyer.
Rousse, Bulgaria, 1999

In May 1999, Bulgarian customs officials at the Rousse border checkpoint seized a vial containing about 0.004 kilograms of highly enriched uranium on the Bulgarian/Romanian border. Rousse is a city that serves as Bulgaria’s principal river port and is a transportation hub for road and rail traffic. The material was hidden in a shielded (lead) container inside the trunk of a car being driven by a Turkish citizen. The driver attempted to sell the material first in Turkey and then traveled through Bulgaria on his way to Romania, where he planned to find a buyer. A Bulgarian customs agent, using standard profiling techniques, suspected that the driver was a smuggler. A search of the driver’s papers revealed a document describing uranium. When the driver attempted to bribe the customs officer, his car was thoroughly inspected and the officer eventually discovered the vial containing the weapons-usable nuclear material. Bulgarian scientists concluded that the material was highly enriched uranium. Although the source of the material is not certain, it is probable that it came from the Mayak Production Association in Russia. This large complex produces special isotopes used for industrial, agricultural, and medical purposes and also reprocesses naval and civil nuclear power reactor fuel for plutonium and uranium recovery.
Kara-Balta, Kyrgyzstan, 1999

In October 1999, two persons were arrested in the act of selling a small metallic disk containing 0.0015 kilograms of plutonium. The item was analyzed by the Institute of Nuclear Physics in Kazakhstan and the two individuals arrested were convicted and sentenced to prison.
Batumi, Georgia, 2000

In April 2000, Georgian police arrested four persons in Batumi, Georgia, for unauthorized possession of 0.9 kilogram of highly enriched uranium fuel pellets. Batumi is a seashore resort at the Black Sea located along the Georgia-Turkey border. According to one press report, the material may have been smuggled from Russia. The pellets mass and shape, together with the reported enrichment level, suggest that the pellets were produced for use in a commercial or experimental fast breeder reactor. Another report also stated that the smugglers were detected when they crossed the Russian border into Georgia, possibly by radiation monitoring equipment and were then trailed to the city of Batumi, where they were apprehended. It is believed that the individuals were trying to smuggle the material into Turkey.
Tbilisi, Georgia, 2000

In September 2000, three persons were arrested at Tbilisi airport for attempting to sell a small quantity of mixed powder containing about 0.0004 kilograms of plutonium and 0.0008 kilograms of low enriched uranium, as well as a 0.002 kilogram sample of natural uranium. According to press reports, an official in the Georgian Ministry of State Security said that two individuals arrested were Georgian citizens, and the third was from Armenia. The individuals said they had brought the uranium and plutonium from Russia and Ukraine to sell it.
Germany, 2000

In December 2000, a worker at a closed spent fuel reprocessing plant removed radioactively contaminated items from the facility, deliberately evading radiation safety monitors. The contaminated items, described as rags and a test tube filled with aging waste material, contained a very minute amount of plutonium.
Greece, 2001

In January 2001, police found a cache of about 300 metallic plates buried in a forest in northern Greece. The material in the plates was determined to be plutonium and a radioactive source known as americium. According to one report, the material had been smuggled into Greece either from one of the countries of the former Soviet Union or Bulgaria. Each plate contained a small quantity of plutonium but the total amount was about 0.003 kilograms. An official from Greece’s atomic energy commission said that the quantity of nuclear material found was insufficient to build a nuclear weapon but the material posed a health hazard. A law enforcement officer speculated that the individuals who buried the metal plates were probably waiting for a potential buyer.

wraithe · #**145** 14-06-2006, 09:32 PM

Lop Nur Test Fallout Pattern

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Maps/Im...NorFallout.jpg Each number represents the location of the cloud per day

Daily observations of the cloud of radioactive dust particles after a Chinese test at Lop Nur on May 9, 1966. The cloud moved about 1,400 miles per day.

Kieken · #**146** 14-06-2006, 09:39 PM

When I look at it you've got every 2~3 years something at a plant.

Before the incident in Pennsylvania you've got 8 incidents of which 3 were experiments (and 3 people died), 1 was in a sub and one was in a plant were plutonium was produced (to my knowledge this would be for weapons). So basically 3 would have been normal plants (no experiments, nothing military).

After Pennsylvania you've got 1 serious incident (Tchernobyl), one accident with a prototype => experiment, 2 were caused by a human error (not wearing protective clothes and using to much uranium when mixing stuff). So since Tchernobyl was a normal plant you've got 5 incidents with normal plants without it being a human error or experiment.

The total is 9 incidents with normal nuclear plants in almost 55 years that are not created by a human error, by an experiment or because it was military. Every incident before 1990 was probably with an old reactor. Even later I doubt that the incidents were with new stuff. Anyway, 3 with let us say newer equipment.

When I look at it like this it's even safer then having babies. Every year 600.000 women die during labour.

EDIT: 90% of al radioactive material is stolen in Russia. Why? Because there is no money overthere to control it all.

Still, we were talking about nuclear energy. We're going way off-topic since were heading towards the dangers of every nuclear device ever made. As I stated before, nuclear weapons are a not done, nuclear energy however.

Argonavis (William) · #**147** 14-06-2006, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wraithe

There are some missing....
December 12, 1952

A partial meltdown of a reactor's uranium core at the Chalk River plant near Ottawa, Canada, resulted after the accidental removal of four control rods. Although millions of gallons of radioactive water poured into the reactor, there were no injuries.
October 1957

Sorry just had to post these...the european ones should interest you kieken...
Kath

blah blah etc

what does this supposedly prove? every industry has industrial accidents - is the nuclear industry better or worse than any other? please explain....

using giant coal loaders and drag lines is not exactly risk free

chemical factories and refineries are not exactly risk free, and if you knew how volatile those LPG tankers are..well there is a town in France that no longer exists, and I stay well clear of them on the road, as if it helps.

my point is all technology has risks, including nuclear. Our society puts up with this to get the benefits, and I suspect the opposition to nuclear is based on superstition and misinformation rather than a rational assessment. There seems a lot of hysteria in this space.

wraithe · #**148** 14-06-2006, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argonavis

blah blah etc

what does this supposedly prove? every industry has industrial accidents - is the nuclear industry better or worse than any other? please explain....

using giant coal loaders and drag lines is not exactly risk free

chemical factories and refineries are not exactly risk free, and if you knew how volatile those LPG tankers are..well there is a town in France that no longer exists, and I stay well clear of them on the road, as if it helps.

my point is all technology has risks, including nuclear. Our society puts up with this to get the benefits, and I suspect the opposition to nuclear is based on superstition and misinformation rather than a rational assessment. There seems a lot of hysteria in this space.

it might be fine if it just effected the area it is in but it dont...when you have any accident with nuclear, it cant be controlled to a control area...yes we do a lot of dangerous things but dont be an ostrich because someone else uses it..fallout from weapons testing is no different to any release of radiation...it travels...i bet the alaskans where not happy with the chinese testing(or did no one tell them)...

mind you it only shows 12 days of drift...how long did it stay in the atmosphere before completely falling to earth...oh yeh, thats one weapons test...how about the 3 mile island and chernobyl..didnt just effect northern hemesphere...
or do you think it just stays put...i think people need to consider everybody...and russian thefts, well that shows what happens when a country falls into turmoil...are any of you under the false belief that this country or any other are so stable that a russia cant happen....
no point closing the gate after the horse has bolted...is there...

Kieken · #**149** 14-06-2006, 10:48 PM

Unless you have a cattle of 100 horses, then it's better to close it, not?

In Russia they have still has a lot of radioactive material that is still where it should be. If we coöperate and secure it everything would be a lot safer.

ving (David) · #**150** 15-06-2006, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wraithe

oh yeh, thats one weapons test...

we arent talking about creating power with new-killer weapons..

Quote:

how about the 3 mile island and chernobyl..didnt just effect northern hemesphere...
or do you think it just stays put...

you are talking about old technology.... chernobyl needs to struck from the conversation as the technology is now well over 50 years old. we didnt know much about new-killer power at the time, now we do

signed
devils advocate

acropolite (Phil) · #**151** 16-06-2006, 10:25 PM

Four nuclear accidents in 1 week and at least part of the Lucas heights operation closed.

Quote:

from Dr George Collins....The normal pattern is, of such, of these minor incidents would be one a month. So all I can comment is in the last few days it's very unusual to have such a cluster

Nuff said...

fringe_dweller · #**152** 17-06-2006, 12:08 AM

was anyone seriously hurt? (how many people die working on conventional power plants and in all industries in fact - I know lately theres been quite a lot of industrial/mining accidents - maybe we should halt all dangerous work around the country immediatly?) after all these years of one accident a month - how many have died? doesnt this nuclear research facility produce all the hospital/medical radioactive materials needs of Australia - that saves how many lives a year!!??, thats right doesnt radiation actually save lives in this country, xrays ect.?? - this so-called evil on earth personafied.
I think its far from 'enuff said' on this subject
anyway funny timing eh LOL sabotage? i wouldnt put anything past the anti-nukers - their desperate!

fringe_dweller · #**153** 17-06-2006, 12:16 AM

Ian - as for fragile desert eco-systems, we dont seem to have any trouble about digging up great swathes of these arid regions? mining produces how many permenant toxic chemicals as it goes? and grazing cattle and sheep on it, but we cant dump nuke waste there, I am getting really confused now!

gaa_ian (Ian) · #**154** 17-06-2006, 08:08 AM

Certainly people still get injured & even killed in industry, something that those of us in industry work hard to prevent, but one thing that is apparent is that most accidents don't just "happen", they are caused by "human error", people cut corners to "get the job done".
If this happens with conventional industry there can be Immediate health & environmental consequences, perhaps even for years to come.
With the nuclear accidents, these are likely to affect your childrens,childrens,childrens,child rens,childrens,childrens,childrens, childrens,childrens,childrens,child rens,...... children.
I think I am happier to stick with the risks of conventional power & industry, the risk they present can be "controlled", and that is what it is all about, controlling risk.
Industry today works on a risk matrix of Likelyhood vs Consequences.
Even if the likelyhood of a "catastrophic" event is "Rare", you still dont do it, you go and find another way !
That is the approach we should take to nuclear energy, as a mass energy source, IMHO !

acropolite (Phil) · #**155** 17-06-2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fringy

was anyone seriously hurt....and... funny timing eh LOL sabotage? i wouldnt put anything past the anti-nukers

We don't know what the consequences of the leaks or spills were. Sure as eggs, if it's serious, we won't be told, but it goes to show accidents do happen, even in Australia. As for one of the workers at the facility or an anti nuker deliberately sabotaging the facility, that's a rediculous statement. Another issue is that the materials being handled for medical purposes at Lucas Heights are relatively harmless, unlike the high level radioactive wastes from nuclear power plants.

ving (David) · #**156** 17-06-2006, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acropolite

As for one of the workers at the facility or an anti nuker deliberately sabotaging the facility, that's a rediculous statement..

why? are you saying that sabotage doesnt happen? people dont plant bombs in buildings? or on a much much smaller scale, bosses dont set up employees they dont like to fail by giving them a task they cant complete (seen that happen so often). sabotage happens and theres no reeason to believe that sabotage may be the cause of at least some of the problems at lucas hieghts... the truth is we just dont know!

wraithe · #**157** 17-06-2006, 12:48 PM

old technology......give it 30 years and we all willl be regarded as using old technology...industrial accidents do happen, and so do nuclear accidents....thats the whole thing, they do happen so why indulge in something that could be potentially fatal the surrounding area, and leave a scar on our country...lucas heights is enough...why provide more evidence for the future, to say we where so nieve that we did not try to provide power without using such dangerous methods...do you really think that the nuclear power builders and advocates would give you all the details about the safety of these power plants...(i hope you dont think that way)... Solar towers have risks, if your in the area of the tower under the heat surface, you could die from burns, but the power tower will still only burn the individual there...if it fell over then it would only effect the people in that vicinity, but it wouldnt kill people on another continent...or 200 miles away...nuclear accidents have far reaching concequences...

mickoking · #**158** 17-06-2006, 12:48 PM

Strewth this thread is still going

My final summary on this issue is that Australia does not need nuclear power and to be blunt I believe most Aussies don't want it either. I certainly don't want to see Australia to be a dump for the worlds nuclear waste, We are surely better than the worlds rubbish tip

Also accepting the worlds nuclear waste will just lead to more nuclear power being set up and creating yet more waste that we will have to manage for HUNDREDS of generations to come.

Like oil the reserves of uranium are finite. If we don't investigate alternative and renewable energy seriously we will encounter problems when the uranium reserves dry up.

Decommisioning old nuclear power stations is an expensive and messy affair and the electricity generated by nuclear power is also more expensive than the current electricity we consume.

Nuclear power would probably only have a minimal effect on the reduction of green house gasses and nuke generation has its own un desirable emmisions.

The task forse set up by Johnny H is pro nuke. According to the wisdom of Yes Minister a government doesn't set up an enquiry like this if it doesn't know the outcome in advance

Our government are a bunch of ideoalogues and their ideology is primarally 'Money + following GW Bush' . Nuclear power is not about solving any problems its about making money in the right quaters, for the right people.

Thats my say, thanx for listening to my rant

Cheers

Mick

wraithe · #**159** 17-06-2006, 12:52 PM

well said Mick, and so true...why do it if not for profit....

fringe_dweller · #**160** 17-06-2006, 02:18 PM

are you aware that huge amounts of asbestos was used in the building coal fired power plants, particularly their chimney stacks? - in fact many maintenance workers and their families (i believe the effects of asbestos can be passed on genetically as well) have died as a result of their simply earning a living in these places - there was some deaths just recently in SA, how much is the clean up costs of decommisioning one of these plants?
Nobody seems to care unless the deaths and contamination are caused by nuke power.
Ving - i agree their is unimited supply of unscrupulous employers and bosses out there - I know someone in retail who was set up for a very serious robbery simply because for years, she was the only employee that informed the other workers that they had had pay/award rises that the employers (small retail shop) had continually and illegally failed to pass on - one time it was a full year they had let it slip by - and they had to back pay everyone for the year -this was enough for them to crack and set her up - and no doubt pocket the money and the insurance I would expect - probably to offset their losses due to pay rises, for goodness sakes they had yatches, holiday homes ect. to pay for, the poor things! these particular employers were notorious throughout their industry as viscous nutters, and had a history of viscous attacks on employees ie sample: sacked a faithfull reliable perfect 55 yo female employee that had been with them 20 years and was going to retire anyway in just a few years, for some trumped up lame reason, just so they didnt have to pay their pro rata! she would never get a job again easily at her age either.