A billion degrees - is HOT

[xelasnave]

I feel swayed by the passion but unfortunately can only say I dont go along with your model .. dont be put out because yours is not the only one .. but it is interesting, conceptually tidy, reasonable without going into detail.

I think the observed expansion may be inconsistent with the prospect of black holes eventual consumption of everything.

In your Universe one would expect the Moon to be getting closer to the Earth not moving away... maybe its being pushed away or is following a bend in space time I dont know but in a cycle such as you suggest it would seem the Moon could be orbiting closer as time passes.. to speed up the black hole gobble up in an efficient manner...the Earth doing the right thing and merging with the Moon for a take away down the track... maybe.



How will the black holes gather up the last bit of Hawking radiation prior to demise or rebirth ... reverse inflation?

I dont know if the Universe will die, but I dont believe it will.. drawing the conclusion it will die is only supported by the big bang notion and the influence of human experience, ...

I once thought black holes were gravitationally relevant to the galaxy but it seems their mass is so relatively small they have little relevance.
If there are any at the center of our galaxy they must orbit the galaxy centre and not be at the galaxy centre... such is their insignifficant gravitational influence on the galaxy... under an attraction system or a "push" system I think the numbers suggest what I see.

The vast out flow of material from the center of a spiral galaxy makes me think a different system is responsible other than the suggested resident black hole shooting matter out of the galaxy.

And how does this out flow of matter fit in to the galaxies lining up like buttons on a string I always wonder... if a black hole is relevant it must provide a reason for its part in the apparent passing of material between galaxies on the string. Why is material cast out of the gallaxy I wonder.

And in this context why does the black hole reject any matter at all and not consume the lot. I know the same as a comet being flung out the back.

The biggest black hole believed to exist will only form a very small part of the total mass of a galaxy , can a black hole consume an entire galaxy? if so how long will it take, say for the Milky Way? Can we have a black hole the mass of approx 300 billion Suns? Now that would bend space time beyong repair.. time would never get going...maybe.

How will all the black holes link up given the current inverse laws on gravity also.. Would they not necessarily be so far apart theycould never get back together... or at this point will space reverse its expansion and we see bodies growing closer in much the same manner as we now see bodies growing apart via expansion.

Interesting propositions raised for me I must say.

As the black holes reduce the density of the uncleared space.. time must speed up given the elimination of matter one would think... the sums will say so.

Well if nothing else Ron you got me thinking.. thanks.
alex

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

In your Universe one would expect the Moon to be getting closer to the Earth not moving away... maybe its being pushed away or is following a bend in space time I dont know but in a cycle such as you suggest it would seem the Moon could be orbiting closer as time passes.. to speed up the black hole gobble up in an efficient manner...the Earth doing the right thing and merging with the Moon for a take away down the track... maybe.

Hi Alex, just a quick rely to one of your points above. I never said or implied that the moon would or would not have any effect, I see this Solar system as a self contained unit, with it's own gravitational forces, which keeps it's equilibrium, as we observe.

True the solar system is a part of the universe as a whole, but far too small a part to impact the whole in any significant manner.

To understand this using a human body as an example, lets say your left index finger is the Solar system, which is part of your hand, which is the Milky Way galaxy, which is part of the universe, your entire body.

Just because you cut your left index fingers nail (a dramatic event from your fingers point of view), it hardly impacts your hand and has virtually no apparent effect on your body as a whole.

You must observe the relativity of things, of systems for what they are. The example of our moon to Earth as compared to the entire gravitational forces keeping the universe on a steady keel, are just too insignificant to warrant a mention.

I hope this helps

I'll go through the rest of your most recent reply when more time permits. Finally, I have never asked you to agree with me, in fact I know my model is full of 'Holes' of any colour, but the point of the entire exercise is to stimulate my own mind and hopefully those of any readers. I once again must say that I am open to reason and logic, prefer science fact but adore imagination

[xelasnave]

True the solar system is a part of the universe as a whole, but far too small a part to impact the whole in any significant manner.

There is no single thing (even a piece of nothing) too small not to matter , Somewhere out there the big accountant in the sky..Nature.. keeps a journal.

Often it is by understanding the actions of the smallest items in the Universe that we can understand the general working of the greater unit.

My study of gravity if nothing else tells me that a tiny particle will solve the problem in understanding the opperation of this force... and even the conventional scientists are seeking it by seeking at a "small" level..nutrinoes ..the smallest of particles are of great interest and relevnce to science generally.

In any event you suggest the Solar System will interact with the galaxy as a unit and that seems reasonable.. which raises the question ..

we (the Solar System) always think we are spiraling in towards the galatic center..but maybe the orbit takes us out a little further each time around...in other words the galaxy is unwinding ..not winding up as it were... the way the Moon is going away from the Earth is a similar situation maybe..
Think about that proposition for a while..human experience relates a spiral galaxy to a catherine wheel firework... so it must go a certain way... things "just are"... we place the interpretations on them.. maybe we have done it incorrectly in respect to what galaxies are really doing... but given the expansion observation and the recognition of dark energy being a pushing force (and I presume some of each were partly responsible for the Moon moving away) I would be looking to see if galaxies are indeed unwinding ...

We expect them otherwise..as you will already think about them and imagine them to be...given your expectation of a irrellevant (in this context) black hole at the galactic center having the power to draw stuff in..It dont,

It cant effect things at a great distance according to the inverse square rule.. as I asked how many Suns are in a black hole..the biggest even will still not be big enough to "suck in" the rest of the galaxy I would think.

So the rquirement that it does should be addressed and the matter rethought I think, what do you think?

However that was not my point ..I was trying to illustrate that the Moon moving away simply seemed inconsistent and perhaps have you ask why it should act this way in any particular Universe.

It is sortta like another ad for the main product of the Universe... GR and the pushing force it represents .

To understand this using a human body as an example, lets say your left index finger is the Solar system, which is part of your hand, which is the Milky Way galaxy, which is part of the universe, your entire body.

Just because you cut your left index fingers nail (a dramatic event from your fingers point of view), it hardly impacts your hand and has virtually no apparent effect on your body as a whole.

Ron have you not had a paper cut..possibly the nastiest injuries one can sustain... The close calls I have had with them reminds me of the various contacts that part of my body has with the world and indeed the involuntary way it will try to engage in the days activities nothwithstanding the wound.

Still loosing a finger nail may be an issolated event not representative of the human race.. and having a Moon like ours may be nothing but it shows maybe "what Moons may do" ..nothwithstanding this Moon is in a Universe of "attraction" it moves away from its compannion.. or is this an observation gained from human experience.

You must observe the relativity of things, of systems for what they are. The example of our moon to Earth as compared to the entire gravitational forces keeping the universe on a steady keel, are just too insignificant to warrant a mention.

Well again I think the difficulty in thinking is not to for the sake of convenience drop the small things... if we are unique, that is a small fact but as a small thing still is important and relevant, if we are not unique for example..that fact is important.

What we do the same as other systems is important ..as is what we do different to other systems... there is nothing too small not to be taken into account.

I hope this helps

I'll go through the rest of your most recent reply when more time permits. Finally, I have never asked you to agree with me, in fact I know my model is full of 'Holes' of any colour, but the point of the entire exercise is to stimulate my own mind and hopefully those of any readers. I once again must say that I am open to reason and logic, prefer science fact but adore imagination [/QUOTE]

Ron anything I say about your Universe or otheres will be critical thats my way of learning so dont take it personal in fact never take anything at all on the planet personal..things just are..waiting for us to lable them.
And in truth my lack of acceptance as with most sales may just mean I am not ready to proceed
And I doubt if you want "yes men" who tell you.. you are right and nothing more need be done... many business fall because advisers simply support ego not efficiency and improvement.
You need to know what the buyers dont like and the customers are unhappy with.. realistically.

My motivation here is to have a chat an perhaps entertain others who find the odd moment to read about how hot and fast the Sun is... I like to be speculative with alternative as history should teach us that norms and facts can change... the world became a sphere from being flat... and it is of no use saying ..but we are better than those ignorant fools we have this and that.. if we dont learn we of today will be history ..will we be laughted at for some strange ideas ... that objects attract?? for example.

On the other bright side.. having to meet your thouhgts gets me on the job early... so thats good.

Imagination is what it is all about... you can not imagine something that will not come to pass or exist someplace...

It is one of the mysteries of humanity, it is the only thing that can really define intelligence for us in another species when you think about it...
Again is this unique to us or is in common through out the Universe... numbers and vastness suggest to think it may be common not unreasonable.

alex

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

okay, I need to read your post several more times to figure my next assault, you (and me) cover so many areas, but then it seems you have to, to get the point across.

A point I would like to make is that the universe is very big, of course you know that and it has been said many times and is somewhat of a catch phrase for many.

But I want to say it again, not that space is big, because space is not fully understood, but that the universe is big.

Therein lies the answer to all things....you see, my universal model will work if the scale is 'BIG' enough

That's it, you need to go and ponder this for awhile, ponder what 'Big' means to you, ponder how you would describe the entire universe in terms of it being a part of something greater i.e. non-universe....you have to think like this, you have to invent an area larger than the universe to draw an accurate picture of how big the Universe is.

This is the start and finish to the great debate on the universe and how it works, firstly you must know how 'BIG' it really is, then imagine how 'Big' it is going to be and how 'Big' it was.

It's all about size, this is the truest truism of all time IMHO, because within it lies the secrets of the universe....ponder well my friend....

[xelasnave]

Size is a relative issue for humans and perhaps one of the problems in considering the Universe may indeed be infinite.
Infinite or not, or limited to the "Observable Universe" it is relative to us, where we sit, the little part of the world we travell around... from work and back, on holidays and a wedding someplace we never visit as a rule... very very big .. humans have no superlative that does it justice when related to their minor prescense.

Dont worry about answers to all the questions I presented they are for your mere ponderings as one will flash in from time to time in your future.

Some although strange may later present as interesting.
alex

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Some although strange may later present as interesting.
alex

You can bet on that

Right now I am killing time waiting till 3.00pm so I can talk to the worlds second highest authority in the Cosmology world.

[xelasnave]

I read the transcript.

I note that he mentions space is found to be flat which means it is big.. I agree and I know you do also Ron.

Dark energy seems to be a matter of interest at the pointy end of research and I think that is something that needs so much attention because finally dark energy holds the key to understanding what is going on.

I would have liked to have asked his view on the relationship of a black hole to the galaxy and if he sees them as gravitationally signifficant for the whole galaxy..

and his views on the sample of spirals (only 230 I think were observed) that line up like buttons on a string.. that observation must point to structural features and "growth" features in spirals that must help understand things better.
And does such a line up point to a larger picture where matter is routinely passed between galaxies.
As it is thought at the moment black holes are responsible for the outpour of matter I imagine he would have something more on the matter.

Still as much as I missed being there I had a wondeful afternoon with my daughter.. built her a rather neat cubby house that she loves .. she is really the center of my Universe.. and everything falls behind my time with her.
The time they are young passes so quickly never to return... if time travell were possible I would not waste it on going further back than to moments with my children over the years.

She nearly beat me at chess.. got my Queen and not many folk can do that to me... she had to go before we finished the game but I think she could have won from there...and I told her so.. which if you know me an addmission such as that is a victory in itself.

She was still happy about it when I saw her this morning...not as happy as me I must say.

She leans more to a steady state Universe but keeps those views to herself when explaining the big bang to other kids and teachers.

I had to laugh when her teacher said to me.."if I am not sure of science things I look to see if Sascha approves and she gives me a nod".
Said in jest or in serious observation I take it as a nice thing for the teacher to say.

alex

[cahullian]

I have been really enjoying your thread guys. It has given me and I'm sure many others in the forum lots to think on. I do have a question though, I'm not sure if I should hijack this thread for it so please forgive me. If light cannot escape from a black hole does that mean that the gravity of the black hole overtakes the light and drags it back? If so does that imply that gravity travels faster than light? Once again sorry to be a pain in such a fine thread.

Gazz

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

Originally Posted by cahullian

If light cannot escape from a black hole does that mean that the gravity of the black hole overtakes the light and drags it back? If so does that imply that gravity travels faster than light? Once again sorry to be a pain in such a fine thread.

Gazz

Hi Gazz, it is my opinion that your first assumption is correct in suggesting that the pull of gravity is stronger than light, or any other form of matter or energy for that matter. The second part however would by my reckoning not be accurate, when you express that gravity travels faster than light. Too me it is more a question of irresistible force on the side of gravity, I do not subscribe to the belief that gravity 'travels' in the sense of being able to be timed or to race against the theoretical top speed of light.

Sort of wordy response, but this is a very complex idea and sometimes it's difficult to explain ones ideas. I am sure Alex will also reply and perhaps his opinion will be even more explicit.

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I had to laugh when her teacher said to me.."if I am not sure of science things I look to see if Sascha approves and she gives me a nod".
Said in jest or in serious observation I take it as a nice thing for the teacher to say.

alex

Without a doubt the greatest post you have ever written I have just selected the last paragraph, to conserve bandwidth and to illustrate a point. Yes Alex, I 100% agree with you as far as grandchildren are concerned, and I salute you for the way in which you have expressed it.

With respect to the IRC chat, it was far too short, the man is clearly brilliant and you can only wish you could have some one-on-one time alone with a man of his intellect. He never claimed anything which I admire, he would always suggest that it was his opinion, I like this approach because it permits you to be wrong and the reality is, in this business, you are nearly always going to be wrong at some stage.

I enjoyed it enormously.

[xelasnave]

Hi Gazz,
Thanks for the encouragement .

There is the conventional approach via space time to seeing what is going on with a black hole.

I have a loose grasp on this stuff but I think it is important to remember firstly in space time gravity is not seen as a force… I think that’s the way they see it but on that assumption gravitation therefore is perhaps better expressed as a bend in space time , the graph?,. but the graph reaches a point where it says the bend is so great light has no path out...I think it may also say that time is bent (in the context of space time) such that the graph dictates the an infinite amount of time will be needed for light to escape from the black hole..which for this purpose is from the event horizon in… the event horizon is where the graph says things are so bent nothing can leave .

In the practical sense of what is going on one would conclude that the force of gravity is so strong that it overrides the energy of light... but this is not the thrust of space time.

From a gravity rain view I have been thinking about this all day (I drove down to Sydney and just walked in) …
If I accept a black hole as it is expected to be Gravity Rain presumably would experience a full flow in effect from one side of the Universe… against nothing...as it were... the shield of the black hole presumably letting nothing thru in GR to balance the pressure… so its impact would be enormous gravity I expect .

My thoughts also allow for the possibility that notwithstanding the extrapolations of the space time graph a situation is not arrived at in reality where, what we would term a black hole, could actually form… in other words it somehow avoids the point where matter is to collapse to past a point where our science can take us…. Maybe in fact It does not in fact collapse that far.Maybe because we expect them from the theory we find them maybe man and nature went different ways.
The fact is it does not make sense to a mere human that the laws should break down, the sums say they will if the situation is reached however..well maybe the theoretical situation is not reached in reality...

No doubt if the mass as required goes into the mix one can not draw an alternate proposition to a black hole forming… where I get lost is with an actual object becoming in effect a singularity.

A singularity means a lot of things but the implication is that time and gravity (in effect) become limitless err maybe even infinite is not to strong a word but in its finite sense ... real big lets say …now I feel this is somewhat inconsistent with describing various black holes as having various masses … my point is once a singularity is achieved presumably the gravitational effect is infinite ..according to the sums … so I wonder how they can be in effect “weighed”…

As an alternative (mine ) to a black hole.. we may have two massive stars is a close orbit formed from the SN blast..or more “bits” in such a gravitational dance that their disturbances of space around will appear that something more massive is responsible … a speculation but its driven by other considerations …

I see the center of a hydrogen atom like two orbiting stars..rightly or wrongly but I guess that made me think of that form as an alternative..and things seem to go in pairs… out there... not drawing on human experience down here .

A helpful friend pointed out that just because the concept of a black hole is difficult to except in our day to day experience does not render it incapable of existence… and we should remember that… but from my human "cant accept the concept" frame of mind.. I simply think why would nature have a point where the laws break down … I my alternative with two stars no laws are broken .

Like an infinite Universe I like it because it is simple and that must be fair enough because I am a simple person .

AND Ron that worm hole thing we must chat about one day ... I want to know how real space can be folded like the graph paper the concept is recorded on??? I must miss something with the worm hole concept ..and I have read about it and say I disagree ..er even strongly ... and I am usually wishy washy on taking stands .
alex

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

Alex, I have a good idea, let's ask the question in reverse, so that we may go forward. What evidence would you accept that a Black Hole exists, what would need to happen to convince you?

You tell me that and I'll research all available known, published data and see if what you require actually exists.

The reason I am putting this to you is because despite owning a mind of my own and acknowledging you also have a very fine one, it seems to me that the majority of educated people, astro astrophysicist's, cosmologists, professors at Uni's and popular authors, all seem (rightly or wrongly) to have accepted that Black Holes are real.

The general basis of the belief is that there is observational evidence of the effects of a black hole but by design a black hole itself cannot be directly observed, however I recall reading just last week that a Black Hole telescope is almost ready to be commissioned.

Anyway, back to the question, what do you need by way of evidence, let me know and as an exercise I will try to find if it exists. Please do not say that a human has seen one or visited one, because that is obviously not possible yet.

This is not a challenge or taunt, it's a manoeuvre designed to align our paths down the astronomical road that we are both walking along, however currently in different directions

[xelasnave]

Well any evidence using gravity rain to establish it...
Just joking Ron.
I dont know that we can get past what is there really.
I think they only show by disturbance of objects in the area..or rather I dont really know how they are so sure.
In relation to better minds etc knowing and accepting something I never let the fact everyone may think different worry me.

History tells us of many times where the majority were wrong... I may luck out... still being a minority of one ..er sorry now two.. may lead some to think I could be wrong..well I could be.. it wont ruin my day you know if I am proved wrong.
Modesty prevents me saying it would be a new experience for me but trying to get a laugh it did not.. It is probably the legal background.. we are more prone to read the law and see how it suits us.. a different approach to science.
I dont think we need to go far to find out.. some of the data bases like NED must have in depth studies and methods to conclude a black hole exists.

Radiation in the form Hawking had in mind... jets of material thrown out in the vortex I gather runs away from the poles..assuming they have poles.. assuming that it spins. How can something without time spin?? How can something with infinite gravity spin? Will the thing be very hot or very cold..
fitting that into a context of singularity.

I guess what I would like to see is a star of pre observed mass going super N and a fair calculation of the material ejected ..and the material left... is there still enough..first question/observation I guess.

But I think you miss my point... which is...could the "cross over" not actually occur so that the laws of "nature" continue to apply to what is left... rather than conclude that because the theory suggests that under the conditions a certain amount of mass will change by virtue of the concepts of space time which were firstly to measure space rather than explain it. Is it possible that the black hole is an extrapolation we dont need because as I say a process happens that changes what we calculate must happen.
Maybe you miss my point because you have discounted it as unreasonable the even think other than current thought on the matter.

The black hole may have run away with itself.. being realistic and looking at the way the media popularised the concept , who knows who really thought about it or just went along because it was so popular.

I think about it and dont always go along with it, simply to speculate an alternative.

And Ron I dont see a challenge or a taunt ever if I can help it.. everything just is..what you name it...and I name it an opportunity to perhaps consider all we know and what we need to know and develope our own toe.
Mr Hawking says he gets about three a day (or did when he said that years ago) so a bloke should have one to post off dont you think.

I still say a singularity in the form of an object needs more thought and how I guess given that feature of a black hole..and is there not the implication that gravity and time are somewhat infinite???... how one can therefore determine its mass... if its won the race we need a weigh in.
In other words the very definition of a black hole suggests to me that as I say the graph goes off the wall... singularity... how can a singularity be quantified, given its gravity, mass space time predictions... such that there can be any weigh in???
I know I miss something but the penny will drop.. but that is what I get from it all.. as confusing as it must sound to someone with more knowledge than me.
alex

alex